Big Ripsaw and Crosscut saw project

[jossimbyr]

MarvW said:

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Dom,

You will find that, that perpendicular line from the center of the hand grip down the saw plate can vary quite a bit without effecting the performance of the saw. Old saws have remained quite useable as the tooth edge gets filed so as to end up with a pointed toe. That perpendicular line is then well below the tooth edge at the toe end. In my opinion, many people are way over thinking the issue of "hang". It's not until the hang gets out to the extremes in either direction that it makes a significant difference. It's certainly not an issue of precision.

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The reason for that is because that example of 'hang' means exactly squat. I don't understand why it is shown like that, because the 'hang' is altered after the very first sharpening, although the behavior of the saw will remain very much unchanged. In my opinion, to get a correct idea of the 'hang' of a handle, you would draw a line across the bottom of the saw teeth, then draw a line through the handle of the saw as shown in the aforementioned illustration. The angle of intersection would be the 'hang', and it would be a number that matters greatly. If you angle the handle forward or back a bit, the behavior of the saw would be greatly affected. Any ideas, or am I thinking about 'hang' incorrectly?

[Steve Friedman]

jossimbyr said:

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Any ideas, or am I thinking about 'hang' incorrectly?

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Not a clue and will prbably never make a saw in my life, but would love to actually be able to understand the "hang" concept and am anxiously following the thread.

Steve

[TobyC]

I tend to agree. I look at it as the relationship between my grip on the handle and the tooth line.

[KlausK.]

Hi Dom,

I'm late on the party but I just feel the need to jump in since I'm intrigued with these saws! Both sketches do look teriffic but the ripper with the WM&C shaped handle is an absolute winner! It's so nice and I really hope that the saw will get like the sketch. Can't wait to see it.

Your metal shear looks good and the result even better! It's a hard thing to cut .040" or even thicker tool steel properly so I'm impressed with your result for sure.

The taper grinding is a challenge, there's no doubt. Pedder and I don't feel the right to say that we are through with this challenge. It's still something that gives some surprises... hm, mostly not the best ones. My conclusion right now is, that a cooled flat grinder would be the best choice to do it with the repeatable quality that you want. Craftsmen with flat grinders aren't hard to find but to find one who is willing to adjust his grinder .005" out of square is not that easy, at least for me.

Regards
Klaus

[TobyC]

The sketch with the two lines drawn at right angles can be seen as a thrust angle, and it makes sense that a more aggressive angle would work better with a shorter blade. And a very relaxed angle would allow an almost infinite blade length. But if you bought three identical Disston D8s, a 26, a 28, and a 30, would they have different hang angles(other than the normal variations between saws)?

[MarvW]

Hi Joss,

Referencing to the tooth edge does seem to be a more logical way to determine the hang. However, the hang has everything to do with how the forces are applied to the tooth edge as the saw is pushed forward. So in that sense, it's not only the angle of the hand grip, it's also the height of the grip in relation to the tooth edge. This relationship changes as the saw is filed smaller in height. The relationship between the angle of the grip also changes as that line of force is directed farther and farther back from the toe end. So there are two things in play here. Having said that, one or the other or both has to significantly change in order for the sawyer to feel a significant difference in the way the saw performs. Definitely a noticeable difference between when the saw was new and when it is finally filed to a point at the toe end.

As the saw gets filed smaller and smaller, it is, in effect, becoming shorter when considering where the perpendicular line down the center of the blade intersects with the tooth line. The force required to push the saw is in line with that perpendicular line off the center of the hand grip. In order to change that line of force, the handle would have to be raised or lowered and or rotated. So, theoretically, as the saw is filed smaller and smaller, if the handle was made to be adjustable, the saw could be made to perform as it did when it was new or pretty close to it. The handle being adjustable could be be adjusted so that line of force is again to the bottom of the toe end. The degree of importance as to where exactly that line of force is, within a practical range, is not something easy to determine. Surely not something I'm willing to spent any of my remaining hours trying to prove one way or the other. It is fun to contemplate though....

[Isaac S]

You're off to a great start, and I can't wait to see the finished product (and I told you that you'd love those shears).

[Blacky's Boy]

Isaac S said:

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...and I told you that you'd love those shears.

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And you were SO right!

But I blame you for my last two tool acquisitions. First it was the Gyro Vise, then it was the shear. What's next?

[Isaac S]

Blacky's Boy said:

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But I blame you for my last two tool acquisitions. First it was the Gyro Vise, then it was the shear. What's next?

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Maybe one of these?

[MarvW]

Isaac,

Wow, that looks better than mine and I'm really upset about it.

Beautiful rehab job!