| Sparetime |
| (Member) |
| 07/20/12 01:31 PM |
A2 Sharpening Question
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I looked for an answer to my question first, but didn't find it. I think it's out there somewhere, anyway.
I have been trying to get a sharp edge on an A2 plane iron for a BUS. I get a great edge on a hock blade I have for a No. 7 stanley, but don't seem to be able to produce the same results on the A2.
I've tried both water stones and the scary sharp method. Both methods followed by stropping on MDF with green rouge.
I believe my water stones are 1000 and 4000, and the finest sandpaper is 2000 grit.
Any suggestions? Is A2 just that much more time consuming than O1? Getting ready to order the O1 blade just to see, but thought I'd get some opinions first.
Cutting in Oak, the No. 7 works great. The BUS just doesn't seem to sing, and it's taking a lighter cut.
I'm going to give the A2 the ruler trick tonight, maybe the back of the blade isn't as flat as I think it is.
BTW, I've flattened the stones and work on plate glass for Scary.
| Bibliophile 13 |
| (Moderator) |
| 07/20/12 02:05 PM |
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Re: A2 Sharpening Question
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Approximately what bevel angle are you using? My A2 plow plane irons like a higher bevel than softer tool steels. Something between 30* and 35* seems to be about right for A2, in my limited experience.
If you're getting a good wire edge on the back of the blade when you hone the bevel, then you're doing things right. If you can turn the whole wire edge over on your finest stone, then there's no need for a back-bevel. The back is flat enough to be serviceable. (The problem with back-bevels is that if you ever want to go back to a regular bevel, you have to remove a lot of metal to do so, usually by grinding the bevel back past where the back-bevel was.) If you can get yourself an even finer abrasive for polishing, that will help. An 8K waterstone will work, though a leather strop is just as effective and a lot less expensive.
| Aram |
| (Member) |
| 07/20/12 02:17 PM |
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Re: A2 Sharpening Question
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Sparetime said:
Any suggestions? Is A2 just that much more time consuming than O1?
In my experience, yes. Big time. I sharpen my blades freehand (mostly) and I am always rudely reminded how long it takes to hone the final edge on A1. But boy, does that edge last! O1 is cake.
| Mtobey |
| (Sharpening Guru) |
| 07/20/12 02:39 PM |
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Re: A2 Sharpening Question
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When this happens to me, and it does, I get out the loupe` because I find that I have missed the "intersection:" it can only be off by a couple-four thousandths inch and with A2, D2 and similar steels, it takes forever to take off enough steel to get the intersection. Look at your edge magnified. I don't use magnification as a rule, but I do when this happens.
| Mtobey |
| (Sharpening Guru) |
| 07/20/12 02:41 PM |
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Re: A2 Sharpening Question
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Though I am an ignorant hayseed compared to Charlesworth and several other experts, I do not ever use the "ruler trick." It is, in fact, a trick. I believe that one intersection is enough to take care of.
My apologies to all of the trick stalwarts.
| RonB1957 |
| (Member) |
| 07/20/12 07:35 PM |
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Re: A2 Sharpening Question
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I am no expert by any means. But I go all the way up to 8000 with my irons and chisels. A2 especially. I flatten the backs also but without the ruler. Best of luck.
| Mike Brady |
| (Member) |
| 07/20/12 07:46 PM |
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Re: A2 Sharpening Question
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If you have been noticing the various forums' threads about the Kato study and its influence on setting up planes and their cutters, the " ruler trick" has been effectively negated since the chipbreaker needs to be within a few thousanths of the cutting edge, where the ruler trick back bevel "used" to be.
| mongo |
| (Member) |
| 07/20/12 08:06 PM |
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Re: A2 Sharpening Question
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Sparetime said:
I'm going to give the A2 the ruler trick tonight, maybe the back of the blade isn't as flat as I think it is.
Please dont do that. The blade ships on your bus plane from lee valley pre flattened to .00005 or something ridiculous. Its flat unless you screwed it up.
| mongo |
| (Member) |
| 07/20/12 08:12 PM |
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Re: A2 Sharpening Question
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A bit more question answering. A2 is harder to sharpen that O1. It also must have a bit higher angle30-35 degrees or higher as has been mentioned. A smother also genrally has a cambered blade which on a BU plane will need a stronger camber than on a BD smoother. But still nothing like a Jack plane. At 2000 grit sandpaper you should have a decent edge(could be better but serviceable).
| closed for business |
| (Invalid Declaration) |
| 07/20/12 08:20 PM |
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Re: A2 Sharpening Question
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i had a machinist make a bunch of A2 blades for me. He used a grinder to put a deep hollow on the bevel (1/4" thick blades) I spent probably 50 minutes sharpening 4 blades on a worksharp and probably a total of 10 sheets of paper. They are mirror shiny. I think the key is a good hollow grind so you don't waste time removing a lot of material.
| Schtoo |
| (Member) |
| 07/20/12 09:27 PM |
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Re: A2 Sharpening Question
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Mtobey said:
Though I am an ignorant hayseed compared to Charlesworth and several other experts, I do not ever use the "ruler trick." It is, in fact, a trick. I believe that one intersection is enough to take care of.
My apologies to all of the trick stalwarts.
Mike,
20 seconds with a metallurgical inspection microscope, @400X.
I'll never, ever consider a 'dead flat back' sharp ever again. It's got nothing to do with 'flat', it's got everything to do with corrosion, scratches and all kinds of other impairments that can hurt the steel that no matter how polished and 'flat' the back is, don't go away.
A slight back bevel erases any deficiencies in the steel instantly.
Sorry if that bursts your bubble, but I couldn't sit here and read any more while the poor OP tries to get an edge out of his blade, and everyone sitting here giving advise and making it worse.
Sparetime, A #4000 waterstone (Norton?) and #2000 paper won't get your blade really sharp, but so long as you've got clean, fresh steel you've at least got a chance.
Only one or two strokes on the back with a thin ruler stuck in there is enough, as the paper you've got is still quite coarse, then carefully strop what you've got. Don't over strop, you'll round over the edge excessively and while it'll be smooth, it'll also be quite large an angle and not as sharp as it might be.
It should make a difference you'll see, feel and hear.
And if you decide I'm full of it, you can erase that small back bevel quickly and easily. It should be no more than a maybe 1/32" wide.
Good luck.
(One more thing, A2 is slightly harder to get sharp but with decent sharpening gear it's not much more difficult. Barely enough to get excited about and certainly not a road block to a serviceable edge with what you already have right now.)
Stu.
| jmcphail |
| (Member) |
| 07/21/12 12:28 AM |
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Re: A2 Sharpening Question
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Personally I'd rather have a flat face to work with than the complication of maintaining a back bevel.
I also think that telling someone in a public forum you've burst their bubble for the greater good while also advising that a back-bevel will "erase any deficiency" is interesting on several levels.
| Schtoo |
| (Member) |
| 07/21/12 03:18 AM |
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Re: A2 Sharpening Question
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jmcphail said:
Personally I'd rather have a flat face to work with than the complication of maintaining a back bevel.
I also think that telling someone in a public forum you've burst their bubble for the greater good while also advising that a back-bevel will "erase any deficiency" is interesting on several levels.
And now I remember why I stayed away from here for so long...
Guess I'll give it another year before I come back.
Bye.
Stu.
| closed for business |
| (Invalid Declaration) |
| 07/21/12 06:44 AM |
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Re: A2 Sharpening Question
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man, yall wouldn't survive long in the basement.
| Mtobey |
| (Sharpening Guru) |
| 07/21/12 08:11 AM |
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Re: A2 Sharpening Question
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I give Stu deference in this area, but do not necessarily agree- and he doesn't expect me to . willy,nilly. But, he has earned a respected place here and is one of my real friends here as well.
Let me add--A2 and D2(my favorite)[Hi Jack] are what I call "gooey" steels-partly because of stainless- purpose alloys in the mix.. They are mushy and smeary if you can believe that. It is partly because of their drag on abrasives that they are harder to hone. I have a lot of Ron Hock's finest O1 and like it too-sharpening is more like old days expectations; like honing receptive glass.
And I get rid of the trash on a new to me blade by doing the 90* grind for a couple to .005 thousandths. Then I flatten , often in earlier stages using a Sigma from Stu. From there it is just Shaptons to Joel's Butt. The egde shaping routine is the same as Len's-HG on Tormek or on Wolverine if things are really messy.
| Alan S |
| (Member) |
| 07/21/12 09:11 AM |
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Re: A2 Sharpening Question
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Let me reiterate that the ruler trick is different from most back bevel approaches because you only use your finest stone, and only a few strokes on that. The resulting bevel is well under one degree, and very short.
Nobody needs to use it, but it is not the same as an uncontrolled larger bevel that will continue to grow and interfere with sharpening later.
Mtobey: How do you get Joel to hold still? I'd think he'd object.
| Mtobey |
| (Sharpening Guru) |
| 07/21/12 09:54 AM |
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Re: A2 Sharpening Question
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I'm three score and six and have the sense of humor of a 12 year old.
| Mtobey |
| (Sharpening Guru) |
| 07/21/12 10:29 AM |
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Re: A2 Sharpening Question
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Having said that, I have to comment that Tools for Working Wood's "Horsebutt" is the hardest flat leather I have come across. Many generous friends here have given me many fine hunks of leather since I am a "sharpening idiot" so that I could experiment. I can use most any strop that is properly mounted. But, to avoid dubbing anyone but a person confident in free hand honing ought to use that exact brand and mount it on a hard flat backing.
People from the forum who have seen me honing often remark upon how much pressure I put on some of my strop strokes. Well, if the leather is "pillowy" that makes for frustration. Note that I have also used some other hard flat surfaces that would take a paste with success--anyone recall my maple wheel charged with diamond paste for the Tormek. It really worked- getting a truly precise center for the axle and then circumference flat and square were the battleground.
While I am a true Shapton to Horsebutt-Man, I could do nicely using all of the potential of my Tormek. They are costly but they deliver with a little setup care. Yes, a bit more speed would help;even the new drip tray on the water well is not very helpful. But, if you give me a real T with the Universal Jig, the short carving tool jig, the straight blade jig and the knife jigs I can get anything pretty darn sharp-producing the forbidden phrase, "sharp enough!" (also one of the diamond truing jigs- I wish I still had my TallowTree) One of the great things about the T is that if you setup any of the jigs carefully, the following process is essentially "mindless;" just standing around manipulating the steel while typing messages on one of those new-fangled fancy-ass phones ( we older fellows can't help but be amazed at the futurama present that we live in- Dick Tracy's wristwatch phone was nearly science fiction in its day. For fun during lunchtime, my Dad would drop in on GE in Chicago and I kid not, for grins, design programs for it- a computer that took up a couple of floors of a skyscraper in the Loop that could not handle the basic data entry I have on this laptop- his coal company employer was in the same building- that was in the mid sixties.) Our daily access to these passive electronic brains is in some ways more startling than landing on the moon in July of 1969-we have more computer than those fellows.
Anyway, the big "T" is a marvel of effective design for intended purpose. The only reason I don't stop there is the knowledge that I can get a tool sharper after I have wrung the best out of my "T." (John's super steels which I tested would kill a Tormek when stones will hone it.) Maybe that is the real Achille's Heel- super-hard sintered steels are too abrasive resistant for the standard wheel of the "T."
| Window Guy |
| (Honored Veteran) |
| 07/21/12 02:33 PM |
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Re: A2 Sharpening Question
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Hi Mike,
Glad to see some of your posts again, but I have question. I have the Tormek 2000 and I bought my Sigma Power stones from Stu ( great stones ) what is this "T" you are talking about ? maybe I missed something
.Anyhow I know you an Jack "Timberwolf" are sharpening Kings and have learned a lot from you two but was curious on what this is.
Thanks !
Steve
| Aram |
| (Member) |
| 07/21/12 03:46 PM |
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Re: A2 Sharpening Question
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Window Guy said:
Hi Mike,
Glad to see some of your posts again, but I have question. I have the Tormek 2000 and I bought my Sigma Power stones from Stu ( great stones ) what is this "T" you are talking about ? maybe I missed something
Steve
"T" for Tormek? That's how I interpreted it.
| AHill |
| (Honored Veteran) |
| 07/21/12 04:42 PM |
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Re: A2 Sharpening Question
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Aside from the side discussions about the ruler trick, I offer these personal observations:
1. A2 does take longer to sharpen to the same degree of sharpness as O1.
2. The higher angle folks have mentioned for A2 doesn't make for a sharper edge. It just helps make the edge more durable, since the large carbides in the steel matrix make it somewhat more brittle than O1.
3. Stropping works far better for O1 than for A2.
4. I don't get as sharp with A2 as O1 unless I hone to at least 8000 grit.
| Mtobey |
| (Sharpening Guru) |
| 07/21/12 05:51 PM |
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Re: A2 Sharpening Question
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Yes- just shorthand for Tormek.
| CStanford |
| (Member) |
| 07/21/12 07:14 PM |
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Re: A2 Sharpening Question
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A2 skitters along on a black Ark for me - like a stone skipping on water. I don't think these are effectively compatible with oilstones though I see you aren't trying to use oilstones.
The Ruler Trick has been suggested. Maybe that will work on A2. I've never used the Trick myself, on anything. Most everything I've read over the years suggests that registering the blade flat is the way to go and indeed I have done so and I get beautiful edges in regular high carbon steel. There's a wonk somewhere who I'm sure would proclaim my edges junk. I'm an old 'if it ain't broke don't fix it' sort of guy from way, way back. Ignorance is bliss I suppose.
I actually thought all of the A2 'celebrations' had died out over the last year or so as people ran into similar problems as yours and if not outright problems had grown tired of the extra time and effort needed to get a good, initial edge. The explanation offered is usually 'user error' (and I see that seems to have happened in your thread too) though that doesn't seem to be valid in your case as you are able to sharpen other steels just fine.
I don't know if a steel is worth changing one's technique and equippage over. I tend to think not, but I too am a hayseed like Mike Tobey.
| jmcphail |
| (Member) |
| 07/21/12 07:20 PM |
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Re: A2 Sharpening Question
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I hone A2 with a Translucent Arkansas, it takes slightly longer but sharpens just the same. I follow with a strop in the usual way.
| CStanford |
| (Member) |
| 07/21/12 07:28 PM |
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Re: A2 Sharpening Question
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Hang on to that stone.
| CStanford |
| (Member) |
| 07/21/12 07:35 PM |
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Re: A2 Sharpening Question
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Stu, why can you get rid of the imperfections and still keep a flat back? If you're rubbing, steel is being removed and along with it the imperfections you speak of.
| Timberwolf |
| (Honored Veteran and lant something or other) |
| 07/21/12 08:31 PM |
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Re: A2 Sharpening Question
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Diamond sintered wheel 6" dia..175rpm...followed by 3400rpm leather power strop charged with diamond paste..cuts A-2 like butta..
| Derek Cohen |
| (Member) |
| 07/22/12 01:46 AM |
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Re: A2 Sharpening Question
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To the OT ...
A lot of fuss and nonsense gets written about sharpening A2 steel. If you are experiencing difficulty doing so, there are only two reason: firstly, you are matching the steel with either the wrong sharpening media, or using an incorrect technique with the blade, per se (not the steel). Secondly, you are using incorrect technique to hone the edge, full stop.
On a BU blade, using one of the wonderful blades from either LV or LN, the Ruler Trick has little to do with obtaining a sharp edge. However it has much to do with maintaining the edge, and it IS recommended. The reason for the RT is that it place a very low micro backbevel precisely where the wear bevel would grow, thus cirrcumventing it.
A sharp edge on a BU blade? Firstly, you have not mentioned the angle of your primary bevel, and whether you are honing a flat, full bevel, or adding a secondary bevel, or creating a microbevel on a hollow grind. I do not advise honing a full bevel. It can be done but is time consuming and gains you no more than a microbevel. Go with a microbevel. Even an oilstone can hone A2 if the secondary bevel is small enough.
The remainder is technique. The most essential factor is that you obtain a wire edge for every grit you hone on the secondary bevel. If you do not you are failing to create an edge, only polish a rounded surface.
Let me repeat - the evil is not the steel with which one works, but how we work with the steel.
Regards from a wet and windy Cape Town
Derek (usually in a sunny and warm Perth)
| Window Guy |
| (Honored Veteran) |
| 07/22/12 06:40 AM |
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Re: A2 Sharpening Question
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Mtobey said:
Yes- just shorthand for Tormek.
OH OK thanks,
, I guess I was having a Senior moment 
.Steve
| CStanford |
| (Member) |
| 07/22/12 08:00 AM |
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Re: A2 Sharpening Question
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AHill said:
Aside from the side discussions about the ruler trick, I offer these personal observations:
1. A2 does take longer to sharpen to the same degree of sharpness as O1.
2. The higher angle folks have mentioned for A2 doesn't make for a sharper edge. It just helps make the edge more durable, since the large carbides in the steel matrix make it somewhat more brittle than O1.
3. Stropping works far better for O1 than for A2.
4. I don't get as sharp with A2 as O1 unless I hone to at least 8000 grit.
In your opinion, is the extra time required to hone A2 returned on more than a 1 to 1 basis in time between honings compared to 01?
I tend to think of all of this as a zero sum game with regard to time. These 'chewier' steels take longer to hone so you give back the time gained between honings (compared to 01 or something similar).
It seems to me that since A2 came out the response to the suppliers was to please stock (or continue to stock) the same iron in O1 but I admit to seeing this through the lens of my own bias. Has there been a wholesale move to A2? I guess evidence from the boards would only be anecdotal. I appreciate Lee Valley offering most if not all of their replacement cutters in O1. I think that's smart business.
| Schtoo |
| (Member) |
| 07/22/12 09:42 AM |
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Re: A2 Sharpening Question
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CStanford said:
Stu, why can you get rid of the imperfections and still keep a flat back? If you're rubbing, steel is being removed and along with it the imperfections you speak of.
Plane blade. Flat, smooth and freshly flattened, with slight back bevel.
If we can agree that this blade would be generally considered to be in 'good shape' then all is well.
The same plane blade under 200x magnification...
If the scratches and rust pits as visible back from the edge are acceptable to you, then by all means stick with that 'flat back'.
In case you're wondering, the back was polished with a Shapton Pro #12000. The back bevel was not and is approximately 1mm wide.
Stu.
| tirebob |
| (Member) |
| 07/22/12 11:05 AM |
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Re: A2 Sharpening Question
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Schtoo know what he speaks of... I would suggest listening. Listening to someone who has made his life out of these sorts of things (tools steel and sharpening) is usually a better option than from those of us that have dabbled in our own shops with a relatively small cross section of options compared to a guy like Schtoo...
Not saying the average user can't offer some decent advice, but when the guru speaks up, listening to what he has to say and giving his opinion just a bit extra consideration is always worthwhile...
| Derek Cohen |
| (Member) |
| 07/22/12 11:10 AM |
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Re: A2 Sharpening Question
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In your opinion, is the extra time required to hone A2 returned on more than a 1 to 1 basis in time between honings compared to 01?
I tend to think of all of this as a zero sum game with regard to time. These 'chewier' steels take longer to hone so you give back the time gained between honings (compared to 01 or something similar).
Hi Charles
A2 offers a longer life than O1, somewhere in the region of 50% longer on plane blades. Chisels are another issue - in the paring tests I conducted, the O1 and A2 scored equally. http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/ChiselParing.html
So, for plane blades, as long as you use an efficient sharpening method, the A2 blades are worth the expense when replacing worn out blades. Obviously, this also depends on the wood you work, since it makes more sense on if using more abrasive types.
There is a tendency to knock A2 on the forums. As I mentioned in an earlier post, it is not about the steel but about the way one approaches sharpening steel. A2 is good steel. There are better - look for the PM-V11 coming from LV. I have used a blade for 12 months, and it is indeed worth getting. Then also realize that it hones the same way at A2.
Regards from Perth
Derek
| CStanford |
| (Member) |
| 07/22/12 12:24 PM |
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Re: A2 Sharpening Question
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I've had A2 in two planes - a Lie Nielsen skew block and scrub plane both of which I have since sold. I had them for a couple of years.
I probably never got either one sharp enough, I went to 2500 grit wet/dry sandpaper. The edge I did get lasted longer, I'll grant you that, but I'm not sure I would say 50% longer than O1. Maybe close. I did not have equivalent planes with O1 with which to make a comparison.
I don't know if the so-called 'bashing' is gratuitous or not. I think people have legitimate issues with it.
| CStanford |
| (Member) |
| 07/22/12 12:34 PM |
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Re: A2 Sharpening Question
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For what reason does the microbeveling get rid of the scratches? Wouldn't the same media used to form the back bevel (which you assert erases the scratches) get rid of the scratches in your photo? Just need a little more work, right? There almost seems to be an assertion that the back bevel is performing some sort of magic with regard to certain defects, when in effect all you are doing is the equivalent of 'bearing down' in a small area. One could certainly simply extend the same concept over a wider area of the back and achieve virtually the same surface attributes as those found on the back bevel itself.
If not, why not?
Otherwise, I doubt seriously that, in use, those extremely fine scratches would affect the cut at all. Maybe the edge would go off a minute or two faster. And that's a big maybe.
One comment on the rust pits. They shouldn't be there. Period. That's an issue for folks who use water as a lubricant on their stones.
Stu, over time a plane iron reflects the finest media one owns. Assuming that after preparing the iron on Day 1, that only one's finest stone (media) ever touches the back (the non-beveled side), as a result, over time, the polish achieved represents the finest polish that one's finest media is capable of delivering. It can't get better (unless the media itself is changing which can happen with a natural stone... but for sake of argument...). The fine stone has done all it can. If during the period of ownership rust is kept at bay then so much the better. So, if a blade arrives flat, and without rust, there doesn't seem to me any reason to get one's bowels in an uproar and start imparting microbevels to get past 'defects.' They'll be gotten past soon enough. If you don't take the time on the front end to achieve all the polish your finest stone can deliver, it happens automatically over time. It's an unavoidable truth. An inevitability. I have chisels (and a few plane irons) whose backs haven't seen anything but a hard black Arkansas for years. They are as polished as the hard black Arkansas stone I own can make them. Now, this might very well be a quaint concept of "sharp" to you but it's what I have and it won't get better. They seem sharp -- can take a shaving off punky, end-grain, fast grown Pine with barely a push.
If a honing media is capable of "erasing" defects in one spot (where a back bevel is put in) it's certainly capable of erasing them everywhere it touches. And like I said, it'll happen anyway over time. How could it not?
| Window Guy |
| (Honored Veteran) |
| 07/22/12 02:49 PM |
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Re: A2 Sharpening Question
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tirebob said:
Schtoo know what he speaks of... I would suggest listening. Listening to someone who has made his life out of these sorts of things (tools steel and sharpening) is usually a better option than from those of us that have dabbled in our own shops with a relatively small cross section of options compared to a guy like Schtoo...
Not saying the average user can't offer some decent advice, but when the guru speaks up, listening to what he has to say and giving his opinion just a bit extra consideration is always worthwhile...
+ 1 ........ I agree Stu knows his stuff and I certainly listen to what he has to offer.
Steve
| Schtoo |
| (Member) |
| 07/22/12 07:19 PM |
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Re: A2 Sharpening Question
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CStanford said:
One comment on the rust pits. They shouldn't be there. Period. That's an issue for folks who use water as a lubricant on their stones.
They are in every piece of steel exposed to anything that will allow them to form.
Like I've already said, "If the scratches and rust pits as visible back from the edge are acceptable to you, then by all means stick with that 'flat back'."
You're entitled to your own opinion. Unless you can prove such scratches and pits do not exist on your blades, then that's all you have. Sorry.
Stu.
| Greg Jones |
| (Member) |
| 07/22/12 08:45 PM |
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Re: A2 Sharpening Question
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Stu, I'm trying to understand all this and I too have the same question. What does adding a back bevel do to remove those scratches that isn't possible by just working the back flat with the same media? Also, is the back bevel visible in the 200x picture posted above? Thanks.
| sdbranam |
| (Member) |
| 07/22/12 09:27 PM |
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Re: A2 Sharpening Question
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I just added a post with a pointer to my blog entry, entitled "Convex Double Bevel Sharpening". It includes a video demonstrating sharpening an old Stanley chisel, and a nearly new Pinnacle A2 plane iron (it also demonstrates dulling them first by dragging the edges down a coarse stone). Both sharpened just as easily, but the A2 did take a few more strokes on each stone.
You might find it helpful, or maybe everyone here will just throw their sharp implements at me and tell me to go away!
| Mtobey |
| (Sharpening Guru) |
| 07/22/12 10:40 PM |
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Re: A2 Sharpening Question
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As I said, Stu is a friend and I respect his ideas. On this one, though, I will maintain my system since my results are satisfactory ("church talk" for "sharp enough.") I have been shaping and honing for 53 or so years and was open minded enough to move to waterstones(I still have beautiful oilstones and use them some). Been stropping as long, starting in those days with bars of various polishing media including red rouge on leather(and sometimes on my Levis). And, never had a guide until about 5 years ago.
I always enjoy the spirited but civilized debate on this. I have sold a fair number of bladed tools here and frequently get a message declaring my work as "sharpest, or as sharp as could be or wickedSharp[tm]". They probably only qualify for the generic "WickedSharp" as opposed to the comparatives. I leave it to the forum in general on whether my observations are as credible as any other members'. ( For Jack's pleasure, I state that I often turn to a 3/4" wide hard leather disc with compound and some speed for that last "lick.") I use it frequently on my lathe tools- 20 seconds and I have a WickedSharp[tm] gouge or scraper and back to turning curlies.
| Schtoo |
| (Member) |
| 07/22/12 10:44 PM |
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Re: A2 Sharpening Question
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Greg Jones said:
Stu, I'm trying to understand all this and I too have the same question. What does adding a back bevel do to remove those scratches that isn't possible by just working the back flat with the same media? Also, is the back bevel visible in the 200x picture posted above? Thanks.
The back bevel, done by ruler 'trick' puts the where the edge is formed below any imperfections (dents, scratches, pits, etc) into fresh, untainted steel.
Done properly, the ruler 'trick' (it's not a trick, noun; A cunning or skillful act or scheme intended to deceive or outwit someone.) takes about 10 seconds, or about the same time (maybe less) than most would normally take to touch up the blade back. It's easily reversible, fast and gives a much more likely chance of having a properly sharp edge on a plane blade.
When sharpening a plane blade, think of it like this.
You can certainly make the back dead flat and smooth and imperfection free. I don't have the time to do that, and I know it won't last very long in that state. To make that back good enough, you need to work a piece of hard steel about the same size as half a business card. To make that small back bevel, put the business card on edge, and that's about as much steel you're working, by comparison.
It has nothing to do with the sharpening media, the steel or who's doing the task but has everything to do with how much metal is being abraded. Less metal is abraded easier and faster. Easier and faster means it's more likely to be done properly and without making a mess of things. Anyone who uses a microbevel on the bevel side of their blades already does this to save time and effort.
The back bevel is visible at the very edge there, and takes up about 1/6 of the blade that is visible. Notable by the fading out (but not completely removed) deep scratches. Also note there is a small pit very close to the edge. I'm not saying that edge is perfect (I've been running a fever this past weekend and am generally out of sorts) but it's better than it would be if I clung to the ideal of a dead flat back being 'good enough'.
I'm not saying my edges are perfect, but they're good enough for me.
I was mostly concerned with the OP being sent down the same path he'd already been down by the sounds of it and never reaching the destination. He was being pushed down it again, and no doubt he'd have ended up being lost again.
Kind of like hitting yourself in the head with a hammer, and being told that if you keep doing it, eventually you'll find a point where it doesn't hurt any more. Probably about the same point when your brains have spilled out...
Stu.
| CStanford |
| (Member) |
| 07/23/12 07:07 AM |
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Re: A2 Sharpening Question
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2+2 doesn't equal 5. The media will impart what it will impart where it's rubbed. There's no way around it.
One can abrade more steel (i.e. go 'deeper') as far down the back of the cutter as one would care to go (and indeed one will over time). This is usually pretty far because it's easier to register more cutter on the stone when lapping the back. Doing this in a restricted area is a bit of a timesaver at best, IMO (ignoring Derek's assertion that the back bevel acts as some sort of barrier for wear moving down the back).
For my slapdash ways keeping up with a back bevel would just be another opportunity for something to go wrong, jigged with a ruler or not. And as previously mentioned, I'm gettin' there anyway. Can't avoid polishing down the back even if I wanted to. I'm just letting nature take its course, letting the stone do what it wants to do.
I'm sure my cutters have more scratches than the one in your photo. A black Ark won't remove them, in fact I'm sure it actually causes them. I don't believe them to be of any real consequence at all. File it under I'm probably better off not looking at my cutters through a microscope. Like a tiny insignificant insect, they look like horrific monsters/Marianas trench (as it applies) under magnification.
I'm sure if I loaded the cutter in your photograph, even sans the back bevel and with those very tiny scratches, I would find it to be blistering sharp and more than up to snuff.
Maybe I'm just easy to please.
| Schtoo |
| (Member) |
| 07/23/12 08:09 AM |
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Re: A2 Sharpening Question
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CStanford said:
I'm sure if I loaded the cutter in your photograph, even sans the back bevel and with those very tiny scratches, I would find it to be blistering sharp and more than up to snuff.
Possibly. Probably even. I do know that the same blade with a flat back becomes noticeably sharper when given that little back bevel. Even with oilstones. Granted, my oilstones still haven't worn in properly, since they're still able to put an edge on danged near anything I want them to. It's not a 'blisteringly sharp' edge, but the edge works.
Like I keep saying, if you're satisfied with what you've got, be happy and stick with it. I figure that little bit extra is so close and easy to access, why not have it?
What stands out to me is that even with so much information out there, so many different ways to get things sharp and folks still have trouble with it.
It's not difficult, we both know that.
At the same time, I often get asked for assistance and when I answer I have to make absolutely sure that what I say/write will get a result.
So, for a plane blade I recommend that small back bevel with a ruler. It negates any defects in a blade back for the most part. So someone having trouble getting things sharp has one less thing to be concerned with. And if they still run into trouble, there's something bigger and uglier in the way than not having a flat back.
Get stuff sharp first. Get it sharp consistently second. Then go play, work out what you want to get and how you want to get it.
Stu.
| Blacky's Boy |
| (Moderator) |
| 07/23/12 08:18 AM |
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Schtoo said:
Like I keep saying, if you're satisfied with what you've got, be happy and stick with it. I figure that little bit extra is so close and easy to access, why not have it?
<snip>
Get stuff sharp first. Get it sharp consistently second. Then go play, work out what you want to get and how you want to get it.
Words to live by!
| Timberwolf |
| (Honored Veteran and lant something or other) |
| 07/23/12 09:11 AM |
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Just LIL...
Until there's a simple, consistent way to "test" and compare edges, IMO, all the discussion on sharpening technique is a waste of breath.. Mike Tobey and I went down this road a few years ago, trying to devise a method by which we could measure the "sharpness" of a blade, and it proved to us that there are just too many variables for an individual to accomplish this task..altho it can be done in a lab.
I personally much prefer using power tools to sharpen, and I can do a very good job of it freehand on stones and leather also, but I can reduce the time it takes to get a really good edge to a matter of seconds, after the bevel is established...I tend to think of a buffing wheel {leather or muslin} as an "endless flat strop" charged with an extremely fine abrasive, and a mirror surface can be achieved very quickly, once the freehand technique has been learned. I dont worry very much about "flat"...I worry about "sharp"!!
| PaulC |
| (Member) |
| 07/23/12 10:37 AM |
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Re: A2 Sharpening Question
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Hey Stu.
I appreciate the input.
Thanks, you are one of the posters that makes Woodnet good.
| Schtoo |
| (Member) |
| 07/23/12 10:52 AM |
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Timberwolf said:
Just LIL...
Until there's a simple, consistent way to "test" and compare edges, IMO, all the discussion on sharpening technique is a waste of breath.. Mike Tobey and I went down this road a few years ago, trying to devise a method by which we could measure the "sharpness" of a blade, and it proved to us that there are just too many variables for an individual to accomplish this task..altho it can be done in a lab.
Push the blade through a piece of standard copy paper. Hold the paper, let the free end float (not held on both sides) and if the blade is screaming sharp and at or under 30°, it'll slice into the paper easily. If it's not that sharp, it might do it skewed or dragged through the paper. It might not cut it easily at all.
Thinner paper is more difficult, since the paper has the structural integrity of a limp lettuce leaf. Standard copy paper is adequate enough.
If your edge won't do it, don't fret! An edge that can't push cut copy paper may still easily slice onions, pare end grain, shave arm hair or your face and take off finger tips without pain.
Purely useless test, but nice if you can produce it at will if you want to. Great party trick and shuts up big mouth morons in a real big hurry. DAMHIKT...
(Especially handy when guys who actually matter are within ear/eye shot.)
Stu.
| AHill |
| (Honored Veteran) |
| 07/23/12 11:01 AM |
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Re: A2 Sharpening Question
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CStanford said:
In your opinion, is the extra time required to hone A2 returned on more than a 1 to 1 basis in time between honings compared to 01?
Usually yes. I say usually, because A2 doesn't necessarily last longer than the extra time invested for certain tasks or woods. For general smoothing, it's worth the extra effort to sharpen. OTOH, for most of my A2 blades, it doesn't have to be as sharp as I can get with an O1 blade, so I just don't spend the extra time getting it super sharp. The major time investment is up front when first establishing the bevel. Once the bevel is established, my experience with A2 is similar to O1 - just a few swipes on the highest grit and/or a strop to keep it sharp. There is another factor too, and that is the media used. Some waterstones do better than others on A2.
I tend to think of all of this as a zero sum game with regard to time. These 'chewier' steels take longer to hone so you give back the time gained between honings (compared to 01 or something similar).
It seems to me that since A2 came out the response to the suppliers was to please stock (or continue to stock) the same iron in O1 but I admit to seeing this through the lens of my own bias. Has there been a wholesale move to A2? I guess evidence from the boards would only be anecdotal. I appreciate Lee Valley offering most if not all of their replacement cutters in O1. I think that's smart business.
I'm beginning to think of A2 as a "fad". It's a good steel, and it is tougher than O1, but there are others (e.g. the powder metal steels out there) that can do just as well or better.
| Mtobey |
| (Sharpening Guru) |
| 07/23/12 11:11 AM |
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I just want to make a few things clear. First, I did not choose the title in my avatar corner---but, I think it was bestowed by a very fine young man that we all respect but also with with a "sense of humor."
There are many paths to a very good working edge and it is because of the variety, that these discussions keep coming up and I enjoy participating. They are not a waste of time. They always have the potential to help a woodworker find a home on the honing road.
I'm a bit like C Stanford (which is not all that often; he and I often butt friendly heads) in feeling that attention paid to back polishing and proper touch up ought to get us to an excellent edge. And, with that, there is only one intersection of angles to be the focus. I have never closed my mind to alternatives and before I continue to reject the ruler trick(technique) I am going to grab a couple of extra irons and give it a try. I'll be using a Starrett small scale(tongue is caught in cheek)ruler. Except for a few chisels and oddball edged tools, all of mine are secondary bevels on a hollow grind. That saves a great deal of time by minimizing the amount of steel I am compelled to address. I do that on my Tormek( I've only used a Jet once, but respect Jack's review). If the steel is really ugly I start with a Woodcraft Slower grinder and Wolverine jigs. Usually I have enough spare irons that I rarely get back to the Tormek, but I have.
Because I try to have an open mind, I go from there to Shaptons or oilstones(for really narrow edged tools) and to the leather[because there is no doubt in my mind that I get much more going beyond my Tormek] and I am happy with that--we'll see and if I have a new epiphany, I will "post out loud."
As Jack and I talked of a "standard" for designating quality of an edge we went through all kinds of "consistency jigs" and were going to rely upon our NRA approved trigger pulll weight sets and some kind of sled. There were so many variables that they apparently exceed our collective "old fart" knowledge. I suppose it will take some kid from Silicon Canyon.
Hello Stu- I know that you know that I know I cannot carelessly reject your observations.
| Timberwolf |
| (Honored Veteran and lant something or other) |
| 07/23/12 01:03 PM |
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Quote:
Push the blade through a piece of standard copy paper. Hold the paper, let the free end float (not held on both sides) and if the blade is screaming sharp and at or under 30°, it'll slice into the paper easily. If it's not that sharp, it might do it skewed or dragged through the paper. It might not cut it easily at all.
That's exactly what I do with ANY edge..even my pocketknives...it isn't scientific, but if your blade will do it, it's about as sharp as you're liable to get it no matter what method you use...and I make sure all my blades will do it...only exception is, I start the cut from the edge of the paper and dont "stab" through it first.
| Schtoo |
| (Member) |
| 07/23/12 01:11 PM |
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Re: A2 Sharpening Question
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Timberwolf said:
That's exactly what I do with ANY edge..even my pocketknives...it isn't scientific, but if your blade will do it, it's about as sharp as you're liable to get it no matter what method you use...and I make sure all my blades will do it...only exception is, I start the cut from the edge of the paper and dont "stab" through it first.
That's what I meant to explain, but failed. As usual...
I rest the edge on the edge of the paper and let the weight of the blade push it through.
Was funny doing it in front of someone with an LN A2 blade on synthetic waterstones, and then watching someone trying to match it with everything they had on hand.
And they couldn't...
| Timberwolf |
| (Honored Veteran and lant something or other) |
| 07/23/12 01:20 PM |
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Quote:
Was funny doing it in front of someone with an LN A2 blade on synthetic waterstones, and then watching someone trying to match it with everything they had on hand.
That's when you KNOW it's sharp!!! No point wasting more time..As simple as it really is, it's amazing how many people dont seem to be able to master it...
| AHill |
| (Honored Veteran) |
| 07/23/12 01:56 PM |
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Re: A2 Sharpening Question
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That's sort of what the Tormek guy does at every woodworking show. It seems everything that comes off that Tormek cuts paper well. I do think he "slices" through the paper vs. just letting the weight of the blade do it.
Timberwolf said:
Quote:
Was funny doing it in front of someone with an LN A2 blade on synthetic waterstones, and then watching someone trying to match it with everything they had on hand.
That's when you KNOW it's sharp!!! No point wasting more time..As simple as it really is, it's amazing how many people dont seem to be able to master it...
| jon003 |
| (Member) |
| 07/23/12 02:20 PM |
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Here's what I've learned from this thread.
1.) There are a lot of opinions about sharpening.
2.) There is a horse named joel, and you can sharpen things on his butt.
2a.) If you can get him to stand still for it.
| CStanford |
| (Member) |
| 07/23/12 02:29 PM |
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Re: A2 Sharpening Question
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As I took this photo I realized, that in its measliness, I probably shouldn't participate in any sharpening threads (I may swear off them). This is what I have to produce fine edges. The oil is good old WD-40.
http://s1051.photobucket.com/albums/s427/CharlesStanford/
| Steve Friedman |
| (Member) |
| 07/23/12 02:46 PM |
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Re: A2 Sharpening Question
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jon003 said:
Here's what I've learned from this thread.
1.) There are a lot of opinions about sharpening.
2.) There is a horse named joel, and you can sharpen things on his butt.
2a.) If you can get him to stand still for it.
I love this thread!
Surprised Joel hasn't weighed (or neighed?) in
Jon - the rest of this is not in response to your post - just a general comment:
I never knew that the ruler technique (note - not trick) was so controversial. Flattening blade backs is the bane of my existence and the ruler technique certainly helps give the stones a rest. I have not yet tried it on a bevel up plane, but this thread has definitely convinced me to give that a shot. Now I wish someone would tell me that it works on chisels too!
While there will always be differences of opinions on sharpening techniques, I have learned so much from the posts by some of our most experienced contributors. I understand that the discourse can get testy as times (even upstairs), but I think it would be a shame if it ever got to the point where we risked losing those voices.
Steve
| Sparetime |
| (Member) |
| 07/25/12 08:23 AM |
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Re: A2 Sharpening Question
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Derek Cohen said:
To the OT ...
A lot of fuss and nonsense gets written about sharpening A2 steel. If you are experiencing difficulty doing so, there are only two reason: firstly, you are matching the steel with either the wrong sharpening media, or using an incorrect technique with the blade, per se (not the steel). Secondly, you are using incorrect technique to hone the edge, full stop.
On a BU blade, using one of the wonderful blades from either LV or LN, the Ruler Trick has little to do with obtaining a sharp edge. However it has much to do with maintaining the edge, and it IS recommended. The reason for the RT is that it place a very low micro backbevel precisely where the wear bevel would grow, thus cirrcumventing it.
A sharp edge on a BU blade? Firstly, you have not mentioned the angle of your primary bevel, and whether you are honing a flat, full bevel, or adding a secondary bevel, or creating a microbevel on a hollow grind. I do not advise honing a full bevel. It can be done but is time consuming and gains you no more than a microbevel. Go with a microbevel. Even an oilstone can hone A2 if the secondary bevel is small enough.
The remainder is technique. The most essential factor is that you obtain a wire edge for every grit you hone on the secondary bevel. If you do not you are failing to create an edge, only polish a rounded surface.
Let me repeat - the evil is not the steel with which one works, but how we work with the steel.
Regards from a wet and windy Cape Town
Derek (usually in a sunny and warm Perth)
I have both the 25 deg. and 38 deg. irons for the BUS. I haven't touched the bevel, so it is still a flat grind across and I haven't added a secondary bevel either, so it truly is still 25 deg.
King water stones followed by green rouge on MDF. Maybe I should be ordering some horse butt.
thank you for all the input. I probably better not ask why the shapton's are better, I'll just trust MTobey.
| CStanford |
| (Member) |
| 07/25/12 10:56 AM |
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Re: A2 Sharpening Question
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Are you having trouble with badly out of flat backs on newly purchased gear?
I must be lucky. Most of the old stuff I bought was flat and the new most certainly was - LN and Lee Valley.
| CStanford |
| (Member) |
| 07/25/12 11:03 AM |
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Re: A2 Sharpening Question
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There is no need to strop if you are honing at 8,000 grit or higher waterstones or their equivalent. You'll likely do more damage than good. If your technique is good you have easily removed bluntness by the time you reach this level and have imparted all of the refinement (polish) you need in the context of a busy woodworking session with a project on the bench.
That said, the placebo effect is a well-documented phenomenon. The allure of a high degree of polish has fooled more than one well intentioned woodworker.
I could probably fool a whole lot of people, perhaps even many on this board, into thinking I'd just honed their plane iron to an incredibly high degree of sharpness by doing nothing more than thoroughly rubbing the sole of their plane with a candle stub. Many, many people confuse sole friction (as a board gets flatter) with a dull cutter when, in fact, the cutter is just fine - still sharp and rarin' to go.
I had a guy swear to me that he thought Stanley put a better grade iron in their corrugated planes. He was experiencing a bit less friction and thought the iron was staying sharper longer. Argued vehemently about it. And probably still believes it to this day.
| nazard |
| (Member) |
| 07/25/12 01:59 PM |
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Re: A2 Sharpening Question
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Charles brings up a good point: friction. I keep a suede covered block of wood on my bench that has been loaded with paraffin. Simply rubbing the plane sole with wax does wonders.
| Steve Friedman |
| (Member) |
| 07/25/12 02:10 PM |
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Re: A2 Sharpening Question
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CStanford said:
Are you having trouble with badly out of flat backs on newly purchased gear? I must be lucky. Most of the old stuff I bought was flat and the new most certainly was - LN and Lee Valley.
It's a mixture of LN, LV, Narex, Stanley, Buck, Witherby, and some others, but that's not the problem. The problem is that my early (clumsy) attempts to flatten the backs actually created the problems that I am now trying to fix. My first mistake was trying to use powered sharpeners (Veritas Mk II, Viel 1 x 4 belt sander, and a Bosch 3" belt sander) before I really understood what I was doing. In an attempt to fix that, I switched to PSA sandpaper on granite, which worked, but led me to discover the concept of dubbing and the cost of 3M Gold Stickit rolls.
My hero, Stu Tierney (Schtoo), has come to the rescue. My newly acquired collection of Sigma Ceramic stones (120, 400, 1200, 6000, & 13000), a pair of Atoma plates (140 & 400), and some Silicone Carbide grit seems to have solved my problem. In all fairness the 120 and Atoma 140 just arrived yesterday. As a bonus, however, my edges are beyond sharp. I know the 13000 is an overkill, but I can't resist. It is a bunch of work, but I have now successfully re-flattened the backs of all of my Lie-Nielsen and Narex chisels and have started in on the vintage ones. I have also re-flattened a few LV and LN spokeshave blades and a couple of LN plane blades. Still a ways to go, but it feels good to know that I can get to flat.
Steve
| CStanford |
| (Member) |
| 07/25/12 03:47 PM |
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Re: A2 Sharpening Question
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Flat is good. Once attained it's hard to lose unless you go out of your way to muck it up.
| CStanford |
| (Member) |
| 07/25/12 04:09 PM |
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The flatter a board gets the harder a plane is to push.
| Window Guy |
| (Honored Veteran) |
| 07/26/12 06:53 AM |
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Steve nice set up you have there, and like you Schtoo "Stu" came to my rescue as well.
I still need to acquire the 13,000 and possibly one of the lower grits 400 or 700. So you ended up with the 140 Atoma as well, I just have 400 and it works like a champ.
Steve
| Arch_E |
| (Member) |
| 07/26/12 06:56 AM |
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Re: A2 Sharpening Question
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Steve Friedman said:
The problem is that my early (clumsy) attempts to flatten the backs actually created the problems that I am now trying to fix.
My hero, Stu Tierney (Schtoo), has come to the rescue. ... I know the 13000 is an overkill, but I can't resist. It is a bunch of work, but I have now successfully re-flattened the backs of all of my Lie-Nielsen and Narex chisels and have started in on the vintage ones. I have also re-flattened a few LV and LN spokeshave blades and a couple of LN plane blades. Still a ways to go, but it feels good to know that I can get to flat.
Steve
Yep, that's my story, too. Often wrong but seldom in doubt--I plunged ahead grinding my tools into all sorts of shapes. Stu's counsel and products have really helped me to recover flat backs and much sharper bevels!
I'm a fan of Stu and "sharp"!
| Steve Friedman |
| (Member) |
| 07/26/12 07:38 AM |
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Window Guy said:
I still need to acquire the 13,000 and possibly one of the lower grits 400 or 700. So you ended up with the 140 Atoma as well, I just have 400 and it works like a champ.
Steve, I only added the Atoma 140 after reading the concerns expressed about how hard the Sigma #400 could be on the Atoma #400. I tried using Silicone Carbide grit to flatten it, but it was a mess without a sink. It was also rusting my Veritas Lapping Plate (yes, I know you're not supposed to use it with water).
Because of my obsession with consistency, I try to eliminate as many variables as I can (my skill level gives me all the inconsistence I can handle). Since I am using an Atoma to flatten my #1200 and up stones, I wanted an Atoma to flatten the #400 stone as well. Consistent with his "non-salesman" ways, Stu suggested an iWood - at half the price. I did think about just sticking a #140 sheet onto the back of my Atoma #400 plate, but didn't think it was worth the $17 savings.
By the way, I have no problem going from the Sigma #400 to the Sigma #1200. I thought about the #700, but think that's really an overkill (even for me). The #13000 is probably also an overkill, but it produces a jaw dropping edge. The first blade I sharpened was my Lie-Nielsen 102. I always liked that plane, but never before knew what it was really capable of doing.
Steve
| Steve Friedman |
| (Member) |
| 07/26/12 07:47 AM |
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Re: A2 Sharpening Question
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Arch_E said:
Yep, that's my story, too. Often wrong but seldom in doubt--I plunged ahead grinding my tools into all sorts of shapes. Stu's counsel and products have really helped me to recover flat backs and much sharper bevels!
I'm a fan of Stu and "sharp"!
Wow. I thought I was the only one who was willing to admit to doing that. That's really comforting, especially coming from you!
I must acknowledge how helpful you were in giving me the confidence to pull the trigger and buy hundreds of dollars of sharpening stones from someone in Japan. That's the beauty of Woodnet and why I love this thread.
Steve
| RLMillard |
| (Member) |
| 07/26/12 11:27 AM |
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Re: A2 Sharpening Question
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Sparetime,
I notice a slight difference when grinding an A-2 blade, but that is probably because I use a hand-cranked grinder, or it could be the significant difference in the spark pattern from A-2.
I notice no difference when honing either in time spent or effort. I use a Norton combination India stone, followed by 800 through 2000 grit paper. I use mineral oil as a lubricant. I sometimes follow with a stropping on a cherry block impregnated with 2 (?) micron diamond paste.
Rob Millard
www.americanfederalperiod.com
| Window Guy |
| (Honored Veteran) |
| 07/27/12 07:47 AM |
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Re: A2 Sharpening Question
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Steve ....... Thank you for the response as this gives me something to think about. I am very happy with the Sigma Power stones I have, but would like to take it possibly one step further by getting the 13,000 which was not available when I bought my set up from Stu, still pondering whether I need a lower stone or not.
I know Arch E. and OBG "Orlando" have been very happy with their set up as well. Stu is the Man for sure.
Steve
| sdbranam |
| (Member) |
| 07/31/12 05:59 PM |
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Re: A2 Sharpening Question
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I liked the idea of using copier paper for demonstrating sharpness, so here's a blog post with video showing an A2 iron slicing through, just from the weight of the iron: http://www.closegrain.com/2012/07/convex-bevel-sharpening-part-2.html.