| Arlin Eastman |
| (Honored VeteranBronze Medal with Valor Purple Heart x2) |
| 08/09/12 01:19 PM |
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Bowls being turned with machines
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This is interesting to watch
Youtube
Arlin
| EightFingers |
| (Moderator) |
| 08/09/12 03:25 PM |
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Re: Bowls being turned with machines
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Funny, I use a machine to turn my bowls too!
| badwhiskey |
| (Colonel Mustard) |
| 08/09/12 04:50 PM |
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Re: Bowls being turned with machines
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Very interesting. Two observations: I was surprised at how fast they mounted it (around 1:27) and the use of gloves throughout.
| JRob |
| (Honored Veteran) |
| 08/09/12 07:18 PM |
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Re: Bowls being turned with machines
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Interesting, and yet....sort of takes the magic out of the process. Poor guy is probably bored, tired and ready for a cold beer after a day of that.
| Nick J |
| (Member) |
| 08/09/12 07:20 PM |
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Re: Bowls being turned with machines
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JRob said:
Interesting, and yet....sort of takes the magic out of the process. Poor guy is probably bored, tired and ready for a cold beer after a day of that.
I was thinking the same exact thing. No personality in any of the bowls. Interesting video though.
| RokJok |
| (Member) |
| 08/10/12 01:01 AM |
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Re: Bowls being turned with machines
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While I agree that the process looks like it's been mechanized and jigged to the point of removing much creative input, I'm sorta jealous (okay, a lot jealous) of the efficiency of his process. Of course, the closing shot showing what looks like hundreds of bowls on the rack illustrates that there's been plenty of repetition & opportunity to hone the steps down to their simplest essence.
I'm also jealous of his sanding setups -- the large horizontal disc sander for evening the rim, what looks like a slack loop sander (2:30's timeframe) sanding the outside of the bowl, and the large-wheel belt sander used to sand the inside of the bowl at 2:40.
I assume this is a factory or, at the least, a money-making proposition for the turner. Hence the efficiencies of scale achieved with jigs and semi-automation fit into the production environment in which they are being used. I concur though that the worker probably gets pretty tired of the repetitious nature of his particular work.... unless he's the owner & gets the monetary reward from the profit that efficiency affords him.
This sort of reminds me of the violence with which Richard Raffan roughed out workpieces in a video I checked out of the library where he talked a little about making his living as a turner early in his career. It was an eye-opener and epiphany to how timid and fussy I was being at a stage in the process where a vigorous approach was actually not only more appropriate, it was also a more efficient investment of my effort. I ain't quite so timid now....
| PhilJoines |
| (Member) |
| 08/10/12 02:53 AM |
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Re: Bowls being turned with machines
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I don't know if this is the same place but there is a factory in New England that makes bowls using machinery from the 1800's. Don't remember the name or location.
| MichaelMouse |
| (Member) |
| 08/10/12 04:48 AM |
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Re: Bowls being turned with machines
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FWW article on that bowl mill. Michigan still has one.
http://www.hollandbowlmill.com/
Was another pair. Machinery is still in use somewhere, perhaps Maine.
http://www.algercounty.com/woodenware/
| Steve K |
| (Honored Veteran) |
| 08/10/12 05:43 AM |
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Re: Bowls being turned with machines
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JRob said:
Interesting, and yet....sort of takes the magic out of the process. Poor guy is probably bored, tired and ready for a cold beer after a day of that.
In industry it's what's known as "dumbing down" the process.
Compare that to this
finial crafstman
| MichaelS |
| (member) |
| 08/10/12 09:22 AM |
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Re: Bowls being turned with machines
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It's cool from an industrial perspective, no doubt. I recall seeing that video a few years back. The backstory may be in MM's link, but I recall it being a family owned venture in Michigan for many years (generations) before being sold off. At one point they were producing like 8-10000 bowls a month? - which if you break that down is 3-500 /day. That's some crazy production for sure. If you want to profit (not just break even) in woodworking, you really HAVE to find an angle like this unless you've gifted talent and either way there are still no certainties in business. If it were easy... everyone would be doing it
Thanks for the refresher though Arlin, I dig some of that process for sure... though I'd go mental being the operator on any of those steps.
michael
| AHill |
| (Honored Veteran) |
| 08/10/12 09:36 AM |
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Re: Bowls being turned with machines
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Fast! Sort of an early version of the Keller system. Anyway, I think we should make a distinction between turning for art and turning for production. This is definitely turning for production. There's a similar operation in Lebanon, Missouri where they make walnut bowls. The difference is that most of the walnut bowls in the Lebanon operation are produced from laminations of walnut strips.
| EightFingers |
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| 08/10/12 11:12 AM |
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Re: Bowls being turned with machines
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LIL,
You all should check out the FINISH on those bowls.....not that good, IMO. For a "user bowl", maybe, but it's not "art".....
| Arlin Eastman |
| (Honored VeteranBronze Medal with Valor Purple Heart x2) |
| 08/10/12 06:10 PM |
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Re: Bowls being turned with machines
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What I really liked was how the log was rolled onto the convayer then cut with the 24" bar.
Now that is a slick trick and would love to have something like that.
Arlin
| MichaelMouse |
| (Member) |
| 08/11/12 07:06 AM |
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Re: Bowls being turned with machines
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EightFingers said:
LIL,
You all should check out the FINISH on those bowls.....not that good, IMO. For a "user bowl", maybe, but it's not "art".....
Nor does it claim to be. I often pose this question to people who go to great lengths reversing and elaborating the bottom of a bowl - "what does the bottom of a salad bowl look like? "
Answer is a bunch of spilled lettuce. So what does a "user" bowl look like? Like a place to store memory of every bump into fixed objects, scratches by utensils and discoloration by contents.
BTW, you have to take the "art" off of its display pedestal to see the bottom.
| Larry528 |
| (Dances with Lathes) |
| 08/14/12 09:25 AM |
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Re: Bowls being turned with machines
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The only craftsmen at a bowl factory like that is the guy that sharpens the tools. The rest are workers doing a job.
I spent a summer working at a factory when in college at a large appliance manufactirer in Albion MI. Made A/C's, heaters, furnaces fridges etc and the only real craftsmen were the tool and die guys. The rest of us were just hourly wages. Pretty good wages to be sure, but still just guys manhandling sheet steel, giant punch presses and welders.
| MichaelMouse |
| (Member) |
| 08/14/12 12:25 PM |
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Re: Bowls being turned with machines
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Larry528 said:
The only craftsmen at a bowl factory like that is the guy that sharpens the tools. The rest are workers doing a job.
I spent a summer working at a factory when in college at a large appliance manufactirer in Albion MI. Made A/C's, heaters, furnaces fridges etc and the only real craftsmen were the tool and die guys. The rest of us were just hourly wages. Pretty good wages to be sure, but still just guys manhandling sheet steel, giant punch presses and welders.
I take it you don't know how those tools are sharpened. Flat across. No skill required there. It's a scraper.
Working production isn't the most exciting thing in the world, but I always felt that the man dignified the job, not the reverse. Meant doing my best whether hammering hot refractory out of pots in the foundry, loading boxcars on the dock or just sweeping the floor after I spilled some cullet in the glass plant. I was being well paid for the work. One summer in the auto plant paid tuition, room and board for one semester at that school in South Bend. Can't do that any more!
Not to mention the one year in the stamping plant where I lifted 18.5 lbs worth of freshly welded part up to the transport rack 1500 times a day. End of the summer I literally couldn't scratch my ear, I was so musclebound.
| Arlin Eastman |
| (Honored VeteranBronze Medal with Valor Purple Heart x2) |
| 08/14/12 10:41 PM |
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Re: Bowls being turned with machines
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Sometime that coring machine would be very nice to have that the Company had. It would be alot easier them the hand held tools we use now and much easier too. Plus it saves alot of very nice figured wood to make more.
If I could buy a coring machine like that or trade something for it I would.
I do have the Mcknoughton complete set and never used it yet. But I think the machine one would be easier to use.
Arlin
| theeviltwinn |
| (No Action Here but not for lack of trying) |
| 08/15/12 07:38 AM |
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Re: Bowls being turned with machines
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You should give the McNaughton system a try. It is easy to use. And for bowls over 12" coring is the only way to go.
Another system on the market is the Oneway system. The cutter pivots around a post. It is less flexible than the McNaughton but it is even easier to use.
Twinn
| Arlin Eastman |
| (Honored VeteranBronze Medal with Valor Purple Heart x2) |
| 08/15/12 08:30 PM |
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Re: Bowls being turned with machines
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twin
I do have the whole 9 blade system, but have never used it since I have a small lathe.
To me it seems an eturnity before I get something bigger.
After reading the now Powermatic in the Wood magizine I would love to have it. It now turns outboard off the end up to 88" and I think an optional 5hp maybe I misread it and it was a 3ph but not sure.
However the cost is like for a new car. $8k Now who can afford something like that but a thousandair and all I am is a $20air
Arlin
| theeviltwinn |
| (No Action Here but not for lack of trying) |
| 08/15/12 09:14 PM |
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Re: Bowls being turned with machines
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Been a while since you bought a car?
I know what you mean. I have the 20" powermatic and would love to upgrad to a Oneway or Robust.
Yeah, I don't see much point to coring less than 10". It talkes almost as long to set up the coring system as to rough out with a gouge.
Twinn
| oreos40 |
| (Member) |
| 08/18/12 08:08 PM |
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Re: Bowls being turned with machines
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I cant understand where the corelation between how long something takes and the type of tool used qualifies art. As I have been told in some circles "this cant be considered turning" because they aren't using traditional tools or equipment. How many actualy use a spring or bowl lathe?Why are some so jugdgemental and haughty. I dont believe that the tooling is ground straight across because of the way the chip clears the workpeice. I have ground tools for woodwork for over thirty years. It very well could be a carbide insert. Most wouldnt care to turn on the machine let alone stand in front of it and make it work I believe there is a certain level of skill in his job and I do believe the CRAFTSMAN is due a little respect for what he does. Mechanicaly it is a cool peice of equipment. What makes one process better than another? Most of the time it boils down to the skill with which it is used. Any one of these blanks could be turned into a work of art. This company has chosen to provide bowls of a consistant style and pattern for those who want them at an affordable price, a price few could match because they have determined that they want to be exclusive and call themselves an artist. These bowls get used for setting the table, not sitting on a shelf. Stop being so stuck up and try to see the good in things be an encouragement instead of beating on someone elses process, product, or equipment.
| MichaelMouse |
| (Member) |
| 08/19/12 08:30 AM |
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Re: Bowls being turned with machines
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oreos40 said:
I cant understand where the corelation between how long something takes and the type of tool used qualifies art. As I have been told in some circles "this cant be considered turning" because they aren't using traditional tools or equipment. How many actualy use a spring or bowl lathe?Why are some so jugdgemental and haughty. I dont believe that the tooling is ground straight across because of the way the chip clears the workpeice. I have ground tools for woodwork for over thirty years. It very well could be a carbide insert. Most wouldnt care to turn on the machine let alone stand in front of it and make it work I believe there is a certain level of skill in his job and I do believe the CRAFTSMAN is due a little respect for what he does. Mechanicaly it is a cool peice of equipment. What makes one process better than another? Most of the time it boils down to the skill with which it is used. Any one of these blanks could be turned into a work of art. This company has chosen to provide bowls of a consistant style and pattern for those who want them at an affordable price, a price few could match because they have determined that they want to be exclusive and call themselves an artist. These bowls get used for setting the table, not sitting on a shelf. Stop being so stuck up and try to see the good in things be an encouragement instead of beating on someone elses process, product, or equipment.
Can't figure where you got the time taken = art either. Care to elaborate?
Tradition is a great thing. Common roots in our culture. Ties us to our ancestors and our children and theirs to us. Except, of course, we seem to equate any motion or commotion with "progress."
The tooling used in similar machines at a bowl factory up the way from my place was freshened by grinding straight across. Where did you see otherwise? They did have inserted "teeth." I believe the older cutters in the historical section were ground, then swaged, like the teeth on a circular saw mill.
You think art is in the process rather than the product? I think it's in the eye of the beholder not in the hope of the producer. I'm often told that what I do isn't art, but craft, by jurists and judges at shows. Paint splashers, most every one, I might add. Sticks and stones. I am reminded of my eldest son, then four years old riding piggy back as we looked at some nearly representative watercolors. "What's that look like, Nick?" asked SWMBO.
"Nothin'."
I picked up the pace a bit....
| oreos40 |
| (Member) |
| 08/19/12 03:35 PM |
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Re: Bowls being turned with machines
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http://www.woodworkforums.com/attachment...ngine-doco.jpeg I didn't write as a reply to you directly. at work I cannot view videos but recognized the title. At home I can and did review the video I believe that the cutter is a hook tool and not a carbide insert. My apologies for my misstatement. I do consider the operator skilled. I do not see the error in this case of wearing gloves, there is no where a glove could become entangled with the work such as a small diameter shaft or extended set screw or the like. I am quite familiar with machine safety and why this is not general practice but I too on occasion wear gloves while turning. I am a little defensive because I have been told that the turnings I do are "not really turning", because I do not use chisels. I can, I just have, for me, found a better way. I have been told that my turnings cannot be considered art because "they are to quickly done" or "not by hand". I do not use CNC. I have a few videos on youtube making toy parts for an international distributor if you want to get an idea of my process. Here is a picture of my father and "the biggun"I have been turning since I was 6 or 7 and building jigs, fixtures and complete pieces of equipment for wood working for many years. we have made turnings that weighed over 1000 pounds as a blank and ranged in size from marbles to 24" in diameter and 16'(feet) long in a single piece. It bothers me a little bit when people appear to be looking for fault instead of fix. It is not constructive or instructive when the information cant be put to use. Excuse my thin skin. [image]http://[/image]
| Arlin Eastman |
| (Honored VeteranBronze Medal with Valor Purple Heart x2) |
| 08/19/12 09:50 PM |
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Re: Bowls being turned with machines
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Twinn
Been awhile since I bought anything unless it is hand tools and small stuff for the lathe.
I have always driven my cars until they dropped dead and then tried to do some CPR on them.
Arlin