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Woodenfish
Member

Registered: 01/13/07
Posts: 2827
Loc: Chi-raq
Re: 14 SEER Rating Good enough? new [Re: themoon]
      #5980099 - 07/03/12 07:10 PM

Higher SEER ratings are not going to help you if you are seeking more comfort. A 14 - 14.5 SEER A/C system is very good. The outside unit uses the same huge condenser as higher SEER units but uses a conventional compressor that operates at 100% capacity.

Higher SEER A/C units add controls to reduce the speed of the compressor which lowers the amperage draw and cooling capability to 70%. The highest SEER A/C units use two compressors to lower the amperage draw even more by having the small compressor operate at a 50% capacity.

All that extra SEER ratings increase cost substantially but not temperature comfort. A variable speed drive furnace is very nice. When the compressor kicks in the fan is on high speed and when idle the fan runs at a low cfm. This keeps room temperatures even and greatly reduces stratified air on different levels so the home is more comfortable. Payback of the higher SEER units is very long and due to nature of product they could have higher ownership costs for service related issues. Electricity costs are fairly low so personally, I wouldn't pay the big dollars to save a few nickels.

--------------------
Any free advice given is worth price paid.


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thooksModerator
Moderator

Registered: 04/05/01
Posts: 47503
Loc: Marietta, GA
Re: 14 SEER Rating Good enough? new [Re: themoon]
      #5980626 - 07/04/12 10:44 AM

A 19 SEER unit the same size as the one the are going to install isn't going to cool the house quicker/better than a 14 SEER unit.

14 SEER is going to be the minimum shortly. I don't know the date. Yes, a 16 SEER condensing unit will be better. It will have a 2-speed compressor and to correctly match it with your indoor furnace, it should be a variable speed blower and there should be a Thermidistat/Humidistat installed for the controls (humidity sensor-based thermostat that focuses more on humidity control than temperature control).

The R-13 batt with the 1/2", R-2 continuous insulation (sheathing) on the exterior walls is very sufficient. Your U-value and shading co-efficient of the glass/window assembly is far more important than that. The U-value you want to see for the ASSEMBLY (not just the glass) is roughly 0.40 - 0.44. Higher is bad. Lower is good. The shading co-efficient number you want as low as possible. You should want somewhere around 0.38 - 0.42. Lower is better.

I believe the minimum R-rating for attic/roof insulation is R-50 now required by the International Residential Code. Your locale may have not adopted the latest code, so don't worry...it's not a martial law that they do. Yet.

I would want a minimum of R-40 in the attic/roof. I would tell them to put any blown-in insulation they want to install up their anatomy where the sun doesn't shine. That stuff is worthless.


You're building a 4,000 sf home? You're crazy for not spraying the entire thing with spray foam insulation. Don't tell us you don't have that budgeted. 4,000 sf is a lot of house. It's a lot to maintain and operate.

You should be installing high SEER equipment (16+ minimum) and spray foam insulation.

Your original post tells us that you're putting 1980's technology in a modern home. I wouldn't.

One other thing....I'd tell them to stick their 'zoned' A/C system in that special place, too.

--------------------
We continue to hear how WN is not like the rest of America...but then you click on a link, any link and it seems that after you read the comments, we are no different. - Knotty Cracker, 5/1/13


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TDKPE
Poindexter

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 9141
Loc: Rochester, NY, USA
Re: 14 SEER Rating Good enough? new [Re: thooks]
      #5980635 - 07/04/12 10:57 AM

thooks said:

there should be a Thermidistat/Humidistat installed for the controls (humidity sensor-based thermostat that focuses more on humidity control than temperature control).


Got any sources for those? I've always thought it would be more useful to base demand on both temperature and relative humidity, as I find myself turning the set temp. way up on really hot days (since the air has been dried out nicely) and way down on cooler but very humid days (since it doesn't run long enough to dry the air). It's nothing I can't do manually, but in these days of microchip thermostats, it would seem to me to make a lot of sense to let the little box on the wall do the controlling based on some 'comfort index' sort of thing.

--------------------
Tom

And now, back to The Mickey Bitsko Show!




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DanielBerlin
Member

Registered: 12/31/07
Posts: 726
Loc: Mountain View, CA
Re: 14 SEER Rating Good enough? new [Re: blindrid]
      #5980762 - 07/04/12 01:16 PM

blindrid said:


themoon said:


Will ask about the R40 in the attic.

Heat pump was builders decision. (I don't know any better) Not like we would be using it much anyway, last "winter" here we didn't even turn on the heater.




My guess is that R-22 is probably the max one can do one the vaulted/cathedral ceilings. R30 on the flat areas makes sense. I wouldn't get too excited about R-40 based on your climate.




I have R-30+ in my vaulted cathedral ceiling

However, as you said, for his climate, it doesn't matter much.

You are talking about the difference between ~95% and ~97% effective at reducing heat transfer through the *insulation*. At that point, the heat transfer through other, non-insulated paths (studs, pipes, little gaps, what have you) are probably more expensive than anything else.

IE Doubling the r-value from R-20 to R-40 is unlikely to cause an *actual* 50% improvement, only a theoretical one.


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DanielBerlin
Member

Registered: 12/31/07
Posts: 726
Loc: Mountain View, CA
Re: 14 SEER Rating Good enough? new [Re: thooks]
      #5980774 - 07/04/12 01:27 PM

thooks said:


A 19 SEER unit the same size as the one the are going to install isn't going to cool the house quicker/better than a 14 SEER unit.

14 SEER is going to be the minimum shortly. I don't know the date. Yes, a 16 SEER condensing unit will be better. It will have a 2-speed compressor and to correctly match it with your indoor furnace, it should be a variable speed blower and there should be a Thermidistat/Humidistat installed for the controls (humidity sensor-based thermostat that focuses more on humidity control than temperature control).

The R-13 batt with the 1/2", R-2 continuous insulation (sheathing) on the exterior walls is very sufficient. Your U-value and shading co-efficient of the glass/window assembly is far more important than that. The U-value you want to see for the ASSEMBLY (not just the glass) is roughly 0.40 - 0.44. Higher is bad. Lower is good. The shading co-efficient number you want as low as possible. You should want somewhere around 0.38 - 0.42. Lower is better.

I believe the minimum R-rating for attic/roof insulation is R-50 now required by the International Residential Code. Your locale may have not adopted the latest code, so don't worry...it's not a martial law that they do. Yet.

I would want a minimum of R-40 in the attic/roof. I would tell them to put any blown-in insulation they want to install up their anatomy where the sun doesn't shine. That stuff is worthless.


You're building a 4,000 sf home? You're crazy for not spraying the entire thing with spray foam insulation. Don't tell us you don't have that budgeted. 4,000 sf is a lot of house. It's a lot to maintain and operate.




+1
I have a 4000 sq ft home in maryland that i wish i could rip open the walls and spray foam.

Thankfully, i got them to put more insulation when they redid the siding to vinyl (so the exterior wall assemblies are about R-22 now).

At least the ducts are sealed well here (measured at 60CFM loss for supply, 30CFM for return)

Anyway, we don't have a great climate for older heat pumps (IE those that don't do well below 40 degrees).

When we first moved in, our 14 SEER heat pump unit, cost us about 250 a month in the summer, and 300 a month in the winter to operate. During one cold winter it cost 800 a month for two months, because it ended up heating mostly with aux.
We moved to closed loop ground source heat pump (commonly thought of as geothermal). 30 SEER unit, 4.1 COP. Summer bill is < 80 bucks for the cooling, and it generates most of the hot water too. Winter bill is around 100-120 bucks.

If i was building a new home in an area that i expected to cool a lot, I probably wouldn't even bother with an air source heat pump, particularly with the 30% federal tax incentive (no cap) still in effect.


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themoon
Member

Registered: 03/14/09
Posts: 1072
Loc: Houston, TX
Re: 14 SEER Rating Good enough? new [Re: DanielBerlin]
      #5980978 - 07/04/12 04:47 PM

I talked with him and he made some suggestions as well.

Going to add:

Spray-in insulation
R38 in the ceiling
And something (forgot what he called it) but it does something to keep the humidity out which can allow you to keep the temperature higher.


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daddo
Sparky

Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 8003
Loc: McQueeney,Texas
Re: 14 SEER Rating Good enough? new [Re: themoon]
      #5981177 - 07/04/12 09:00 PM

R38 is the standard now and it does make a nice difference.

Also going from R6 to R8 ducting makes a big difference as well. (R6 being the minimum for a 14 seer).

The 16+ seer systems are nice if you get a good system with a parts and labor warranty along with a professional install.
The cost of repairs on these systems may eat all those savings up even on one repair. More things to go wrong during the 10-15 years it's around.

For example, if there are two compressors and one fails to ground- you will be replacing both compressors (on most brands with two compressors or paralleled units) and cleaning up the whole system- go to the bank and get a loan for this one.

However, humidity control is very nice with the 2 stage systems.

--------------------
"There are no strangers- only friends I haven't met.


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thooksModerator
Moderator

Registered: 04/05/01
Posts: 47503
Loc: Marietta, GA
Re: 14 SEER Rating Good enough? new [Re: daddo]
      #5981198 - 07/04/12 09:26 PM

Unless I am mistaken, R8 duct insulation is required by code (IRC) now. Might not be in TX, but I know in GA and AL it is.

R6 in commercial.

--------------------
We continue to hear how WN is not like the rest of America...but then you click on a link, any link and it seems that after you read the comments, we are no different. - Knotty Cracker, 5/1/13


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thooksModerator
Moderator

Registered: 04/05/01
Posts: 47503
Loc: Marietta, GA
Re: 14 SEER Rating Good enough? new [Re: TDKPE]
      #5981199 - 07/04/12 09:29 PM

Tom,

Those really only work with systems that are designed for them or that have the capabilities (i.e.: heat pump with aux heat strips or a gas or cooling-only system with duct heater.....OR a 2 or multi-speed compressor and like evap fan...like the newer 16 and over SEER rated residential equipment.)

With the Strip heat or duct heater, you can operate the compressor and aux heat or duct heater at the same time to perform a re-heat of the supply air.

Yeah, this is against the energy code but a good engineer will never let the energy code get in the way of a good design.

--------------------
We continue to hear how WN is not like the rest of America...but then you click on a link, any link and it seems that after you read the comments, we are no different. - Knotty Cracker, 5/1/13


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