JR_
Honored Veteran
Registered: 03/13/09
Posts: 15444
Loc: Rhode Island
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I need to drain the soil around my house and carry away the rain water off the roof.
No gutters and I don't want them.
I want a french drain directly below the drip line from the roof.
I have the needed elevation to carry the water away rather quickly. The property slopes about 30 feet from the structure and drops down 5 feet or so.
How much should the perf pipe pitch per 10 feet of flow?
How far down should it be at a minimum at the start of the run?
What do I line the trench with?
Perfs in pipe up or down?
I need a How-to from someone who's done this.
Thanks
J
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JR_
Honored Veteran
Registered: 03/13/09
Posts: 15444
Loc: Rhode Island
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Guess we'll wing-it... 
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Mandrake
Member
Registered: 06/25/03
Posts: 4121
Loc: Cypress, TX
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Don't do that. Or if you do, document the process and results real well. 
I need to add a pair of drains for my yard, and some drainage for a shop I'll be building in a few months. I haven't hit the point of doing the work or research yet; or I'd share what I learned.
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Shame on the men who can court exemption from present trouble and expense at the price of their own posterity's liberty! - Samuel Adams
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JGrout
member
Registered: 08/04/02
Posts: 23302
Loc: Axial CO
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installed correctly the pipe should be level or nearly so around the perimeter of the structure. the drops away from the building are graded out @ 1/4" per foot.
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Wood'N'Scout
Member
Registered: 03/25/06
Posts: 619
Loc: Illinois
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Just your average DIY'er here so I can't answer your specific questions. However I seem to recall a TOH season down in Texas where they did exactly what you are describing. It involved landscape fabric, washed river stone, and perforated pipe. Maybe you can find that to answer your questions.
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berone
Member
Registered: 01/16/05
Posts: 4153
Loc: Peekskill, NY
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When I enclosed our back porch (which floats off the back of the 2nd floor and has a roof line 9' from the foundation) I tore off the gutter because I had to redo the siding, roof, and soffit. Things going as they go, it was about a year and a half before I paid any attention to it again. During that time the ground where the rain fell in sheets got seriously trenched. Now being as far from the foundation as it was and with the land sloping to the gulley, there was never a problem with water infiltration. But it was ugly on the ground and, during a heavy rain, ugly to look at the water falling so hard off the roof. But I didn't want gutters, mostly because there was no good way to bring the downspout from the overhang. I decided to try Rainhandlers , despite the fact that nobody could tell me about them. (There were lots of negative comments on various forums from people who had never used them). They were the perfect solution. The same amount of water still falls off the roof, but because it gets dispersed it doesn't look as awful as it falls- it just looks like rain- and it doesn't trench the ground. They were reasonably priced and very simple to install.
I don't know the specifics of your question- when I did a french drain on one side of my house I think I didn't think about it too much. I probably pitched 1/4" per foot because that's what I always pitch. Also, I was only running on one side of the house and it was in the direction that the water wanted to run. I dug down to about 6" below the bottom of the foundation, lay 6" of gravel, wrapped the perforated pipe in a sock (pm me if you need sock fabric- I bought a big roll and didn't need much of it), then filled in the trench with gravel to about a foot below the grade. Laid landscape cloth and then dirt above that. Because my property pitched severely toward the house, I created a swale over the trench by piling the soil up against the house and pitching back to the center of the trench. My house is all brick with a rubble foundation, so the issues of soil against the house don't really come into play. It's been about 7 years with no water in the basement (except from the hole some idiot drilled below the soil line to run an outlet to the front porch).
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Anthony
Disposable income? Is that what I pour into the house?
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JR_
Honored Veteran
Registered: 03/13/09
Posts: 15444
Loc: Rhode Island
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Thanks...
Guess I'll take some elevation measurements and figure out how low I need to start the run at the bottom of the run.
Good job for the boys...
The foundation is stone and very open to water infiltration. I need to get the water away from the house.
The foundation is is 7 feet deep so I won't be excavating the exterior and going lower than the basement floor. I'm figuring to go 15" deep at the farthest point and wrapping two runs down both sides of the house to the rear of the house and off to the street (or close to it).
I live on the top of a hill so as long as I can get the pipe run where I need it, I'm sure that will be the end of my water woes.
No way I'm bringing my tools here until the basement is bone dry.
I'll have the floor of the basement cut and we'll install a sump pump too for that "just in case" scenario.
Anyone know if the perf should face up or down???
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JGrout
member
Registered: 08/04/02
Posts: 23302
Loc: Axial CO
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holes go down using PVC plastic pipe.
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ferrari
TOTAL Noob
Registered: 09/28/10
Posts: 9606
Loc: Kansas
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Water running off your roof, hitting the ground and splashing back on your house and eating away at the ground as it falls is not good for you house.
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daveferg
member
Registered: 02/19/02
Posts: 39680
Loc: Cloverdale, CA, USA
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ferrari said:
Water running off your roof, hitting the ground and splashing back on your house and eating away at the ground as it falls is not good for you house.
It will make a mess on the siding, so unless you plan on having either concrete sidewalks or gravel along the entire drip line of your house---just be prepared for messy looking siding.
I installed my own french drains that are still working 22 years after the fact. As to slope----start with where do you want to drain to???? Gutter on street-----swale----etc. Then see if that will work going "up" the grade---if too high, find a lower drain spot.
The way to build is dig your trench----3-4 times as wide as the drain pipe and a few inches deeper than the bottom of where you want the pipe to end up.
Depending on how much work you want to do and how maintenance free you want the drain----you can either use landscape fabric to line the trench or buy the pipe with the fabric already on it (a sock). The best is to line the trench to keep silt out of the gravel---but ultimately, you want to at least keep it out of the drain line.
Now, if these trenches run under the drip line of your house, I'd just fill them to the top with gravel. If they are for a planted area----garden, lawn, etc., fill with gravel about 6" shy of the surface ----fill the rest with soil, but try and keep the final level an inch or two below the surrounding area for drainage.
Only other item---is the far end of the french drain---you can either terminate it by having a drain cover on the ground surface, or terminate in a dry well or other means to make it easy to find the end----that way, when you find the end of the pipe, you can run a garden hose down it to flush it out every 5 years or so.
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Dave
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JR_
Honored Veteran
Registered: 03/13/09
Posts: 15444
Loc: Rhode Island
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The house is over 30" off the ground. Any splatter is hitting the foundation not the siding.
My last place was the same way and the 75 year old cedar shingles were as good as they day they were installed.
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JR_
Honored Veteran
Registered: 03/13/09
Posts: 15444
Loc: Rhode Island
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BTW... I do plan on having exposed gravel above the drain. Landscaping shrubbery will be outside that and will grow along side the french drain area.
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daveferg
member
Registered: 02/19/02
Posts: 39680
Loc: Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Good plan----as a regular maintenance chore, try to keep leaves and debris leaf-blown out of the gravel as it will decompose and provide growth for weeds. But, even if covered with a lawn, as long as there's a depression when the pipe runs, you'll still get water to flow through the drain line.
Have fun!
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Dave
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JR_
Honored Veteran
Registered: 03/13/09
Posts: 15444
Loc: Rhode Island
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I'll need to have this corrected soon. We had a massive downpour the other day and a lot of water came in. Sucking it up was a chore. No sump pump well in the basement (yet). Vacuumed water and dumped it into a tote that held the sump pump. This negated having to walk outside with the vac to dump it...
While we were at it, the non-functioning water heater got emptied into the tote as well.
I rolled the water heater to the edge of the road and left it there. I went in the house for no more than 5 minutes and the tank was gone when I came back out.
Scrap prices must be up there 
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daveferg
member
Registered: 02/19/02
Posts: 39680
Loc: Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Well, here's hoping the drain will help. There's no question gutters connected to downspouts that have piping to carry rainfall away from the foundation would help your basement problem----Just make sure your grading is set properly.
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Dave
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Chromo
Member
Registered: 11/07/05
Posts: 72
Loc: Des Moines, Iowa, USA
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The suggestion given will give you a way of draining the water away from the home but you also will have splashing as indicated. You may also want to add the following ... http://www.rainhandler.com/.
Plus if Google and search YouTube you will find a lot of info that will help,
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JR_
Honored Veteran
Registered: 03/13/09
Posts: 15444
Loc: Rhode Island
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The drain should handle the water as well as the gutters. All the water will end up in the same place and I won't have to deal with the cost of the gutters or the maintenance. Ice damns are almost non-existent with the lack of gutters too.
My current place has gutters and we are constantly having to clean them out. Wind borne debris is drawn in like a magnet. I've tried a few of the debris screens and they've been nothing but trouble.
Gutters are more trouble than they are worth to me. I'll let the rain fall into the french drain and carry it away from there.
I'll line the trench, cover the perf pipe with a silt filter and cover that in 1" stone. We'll need to trench 150 feet or so...
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blindrid
Member
Registered: 11/07/03
Posts: 4742
Loc: Castle Rock CO
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ferrari said:
Water running off your roof, hitting the ground and splashing back on your house and eating away at the ground as it falls is not good for you house.
.....along with water near foundation, erosion, freezing, to add a few problems.
That's exactly why gutters are code here.
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daveferg
member
Registered: 02/19/02
Posts: 39680
Loc: Cloverdale, CA, USA
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No question that drain will help. But, later if you find your basement is still flooding, either live with it or get gutters.
Now, to correct you on a couple of things about gutters-----they have little if anything to do with ice dams----I read up on this when my wife's uncle was having trouble.
Ice dams are caused by differences in roofing over an attic (where snow could melt) vs. roofing on overhangs/eves, where there is no heat-----Ice/snow melts on the warmed section and re-freezes when it hits the cold---backing further melt water under the shingles.
Now as to cleaning gutters----if you ever reach the point where you give in----I've found the best aftermarket gutter guards that keep out leaves and are easy to install, and remove if you ever need to.
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Dave
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JR_
Honored Veteran
Registered: 03/13/09
Posts: 15444
Loc: Rhode Island
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The house it not insulated properly nor vented properly and neither of those issues will see a fix for quite some time. Too many things ahead of it.
Melting snow/ice not collecting in a cold gutter and freezing will certainly not make matters worse.
I've removed the gutters from 3 of 4 of the last buildings I have owned and it was a much better situation after they were gone. This building is typical of those three.
I WILL NOT BE INSTALLING GUTTERS ON THIS HOUSE.
I will put a drip edge on the roof above the rear door to redirect the rain at that single point no no others...
Did I say "no gutters"?
If ya missed it 
NO GUTTERS!!!!!
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daveferg
member
Registered: 02/19/02
Posts: 39680
Loc: Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Suit yourself, but just don't come whining about water in your basement. All I was doing was suggesting another step if you still have water in the basement after installing the french drains---that and pointing out where you were wrong about gutters.
Hey, I lived in southern Calif. for years---and like 90% of the houses down there don't have gutters----but they also don't have many basements either. That's not to say the rain run-off from the roof still doesn't make a mess in gardens or sidewalks.
No one is forcing you to put on gutters----just trying to keep the facts straight.
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Dave
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blindrid
Member
Registered: 11/07/03
Posts: 4742
Loc: Castle Rock CO
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daveferg said:
Suit yourself, but just don't come whining about water in your basement. All I was doing was suggesting another step if you still have water in the basement after installing the french drains---that and pointing out where you were wrong about gutters.
Hey, I lived in southern Calif. for years---and like 90% of the houses down there don't have gutters----but they also don't have many basements either. That's not to say the rain run-off from the roof still doesn't make a mess in gardens or sidewalks.
No one is forcing you to put on gutters----just trying to keep the facts straight.
+1 - end of story. A moat? C'est la vie.
Edited by blindrid (08/30/12 01:55 PM)
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JR_
Honored Veteran
Registered: 03/13/09
Posts: 15444
Loc: Rhode Island
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It's going to cost me $75 in labor for the trench work
My son wants a new skateboard. I just ordered it and told him he could have it as soon as the trench was done.
I could have just had him do it with no reward but I figured this would entice him to do it quickly
It doesn't look like an easy dig either. It's a good part stone riddled gravel. He'll be using a digging bar to loosen the soil quite a bit. Can't wait to see him sweating 
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daveferg
member
Registered: 02/19/02
Posts: 39680
Loc: Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Could be worse----he could be digging on my land----what isn't full of rocks is full of tree roots! 
What a cheapskate! $75 for a trench? Your son needs to join a union to fight for a living wage.
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Dave
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berone
Member
Registered: 01/16/05
Posts: 4153
Loc: Peekskill, NY
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I don't know why you're so insistent on gutters, JR. I think you can get by just fine without them. If you really want to, go ahead and put them in, but I don't think lack of gutters will result in rain in the basement. I do fear that not putting the french drain deep enough or doing something to treat that rubble foundation will. If it's only $75 for a trench, buy him two skateboards and have him dig all the way down.
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Anthony
Disposable income? Is that what I pour into the house?
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daveferg
member
Registered: 02/19/02
Posts: 39680
Loc: Cloverdale, CA, USA
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berone said:
I don't know why you're so insistent on gutters, JR. I think you can get by just fine without them. If you really want to, go ahead and put them in, but I don't think lack of gutters will result in rain in the basement. I do fear that not putting the french drain deep enough or doing something to treat that rubble foundation will. If it's only $75 for a trench, buy him two skateboards and have him dig all the way down.
I think you mis-read JR's comments. I was the one suggesting gutters for numerous reasons, for which I think you are mistaken. Aside from the mess that no gutters leave on sidewalks, garden beds and splashing mud against the house, carrying water "away" from the foundation is the key to maintaining a dry basement.
BTW----we went out to dinner last night and drove home past our favorite Craftsman home in town. You had to look twice (due to the design/paint job) but it had gutters.
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Dave
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berone
Member
Registered: 01/16/05
Posts: 4153
Loc: Peekskill, NY
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No, I just refuse to use emoticons. If irony is missed, so be it.
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Anthony
Disposable income? Is that what I pour into the house?
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daveferg
member
Registered: 02/19/02
Posts: 39680
Loc: Cloverdale, CA, USA
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berone said:
No, I just refuse to use emoticons. If irony is missed, so be it.
I use 'em.  
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Dave
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JR_
Honored Veteran
Registered: 03/13/09
Posts: 15444
Loc: Rhode Island
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And so the job begins...(sorry, phone pic)
Starting with the removal of the topsoil. What little there is of it.
There is nothing but a dirt driveway here and there are a few sections just off the road where large puddles form. Most of the subsoil will get deposited there to level out the drive.
The rest will get dumped into the crater left by a small pool...
Rained quite heavily yesterday. Real hard for a long while and we didn't have any water come in. It must have been one heck of a downpour a few weeks ago to have had that water come in. I'm very optimistic after seeing the water drain away yesterday. That's about as bad a rain storm as we get and with nothing coming in, it must be a very infrequent instance where it does. This drain should alleviate even that possibility.
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jteneyck
Member
Registered: 01/24/10
Posts: 3099
Loc: Western NY
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An alternative drain system, one I just had installed BTW, uses perforated 6" flexible PVC hose with a sock over it installed directly in the dug trench with no stone. It works even in the heavy clay soils where I live. It is much easier to install for a DIY project; you could put stone on top if you want it for aesthetic reasons, but it's not needed. It is pitched at 1/4" per foot.
I'm betting your son will be asking for something besides the skateboard before the trench gets finished.
John
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JR_
Honored Veteran
Registered: 03/13/09
Posts: 15444
Loc: Rhode Island
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jteneyck said:
I'm betting your son will be asking for something besides the skateboard before the trench gets finished.
John
Already broached the subject.... "This is a lot more work than I figured"
If he does a good job, I'll reward him.
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David Stone
Member
Registered: 07/26/05
Posts: 2660
Loc: Dutchess Co., New York
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How did this turnout? Any more progress pics?
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"Pine has no place in this loft. It's the wood of poor people and outhouses." Schmidt
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JR_
Honored Veteran
Registered: 03/13/09
Posts: 15444
Loc: Rhode Island
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Nothing yet.... job started and now covered with snow 
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