KingwoodFan1989
Member
Registered: 08/24/08
Posts: 288
Loc: Tracy, CA
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I'm about to do my second attempt at my table top (without sanding through the veneer this time  ) and the table base has darkened somewhat. I kind of like it, but is there a way to get fresh cherry to darken quickly after surfacing?
I've read a bit about it, and sunlight is said to help. However, if I let it sit outside, won't it warp? Yes, I could let it sit and then face joint and face plane it to flatten it again, but that would take away the slight patina.
Also, if I used a very light stain on the fresh cherry to get it to match, would the cherry darken differently than that which isn't stained?
It's gonna have shellac as a topcoat, but isn't the wood going to darken anyway?
Any good ways to darken fresh cherry and have it age to the same color as some slightly older cherry?
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Near future projects:
-2 Nightstands (Oak with figured walnut drawer fronts)
-Curly Maple display case
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LENPAM
Infill Magnet
Registered: 04/03/05
Posts: 9743
Loc: PORT CLINTON,OHIO
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Set it in the sunlight and it will darken,other then that you'll need to stain it or use some other artificial means,Len
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INFILL MAGNET
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Bøb
Member
Registered: 10/13/06
Posts: 1296
Loc: S.E. Tennessee
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A very weak solution of Lye + Water will accelerate the natural darkening/coloring process, without the fear of blotching. No stain ... nothing artificial ... just speeding up what will happen over time.
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Now let us retract the foreskin of misconception and apply the wire brush of enlightenment.
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KingwoodFan1989
Member
Registered: 08/24/08
Posts: 288
Loc: Tracy, CA
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Bob, could you tell me more about Lye? Also, just so I can test it, if I put it on will the cherry show up fresh again if I plane it just in case I don't like it?
Do they sell lye at home centers or some other stores? And what is the process and other such things like the mix ratio with water, application tools, wiping away the excess etc?
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Near future projects:
-2 Nightstands (Oak with figured walnut drawer fronts)
-Curly Maple display case
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Steve N
Member
Registered: 09/28/07
Posts: 8884
Loc: CinDay
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Please allow me to Google that for you
It`s a subject almost everyone brings up at some time, about Cherry. Like a lot of things woodworking, lots of ways to skin that cat, all have advocates.
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Worst thing they can do is cook ya and eat ya 
GW
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bigfrank
Member
Registered: 02/19/07
Posts: 2815
Loc: Linn county, Iowa
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Pretty difficult.
As was said just letting it sit in the sun is best.
We've tried a weak stain to accelerate it to match an existing piece, not very satisfactory, it looked too dark after a while.
Frank.
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Humanbackhoe
Neoanderthal
Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 3662
Loc: Savage, Md.
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I wouldn't do anything to the cherry. The natural darkening starts immediately and will change quite a bit in two weeks. Certainly, I wouldn't set wood in direct sunlight, as, ambient sunlight will change the wood anyway, especially a table top, without risk of warp.
Be patient 
Andrew
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"That's like getting a running start and diving headfirst into the vortex."
Steve Freidman 4/21/2013
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JGrout
member
Registered: 08/04/02
Posts: 23304
Loc: Axial CO
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bigfrank said:
Pretty difficult.
As was said just letting it sit in the sun is best.
We've tried a weak stain to accelerate it to match an existing piece, not very satisfactory, it looked too dark after a while.
Frank.
yep same experience. tends to go greyish so when you think you have it about right it was too much.
time does the best job. all else takes diligence and luck.
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MsNomer
Wood Recycler
Registered: 05/20/05
Posts: 9182
Loc: NorthCentral OK
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You won't notice the difference nearly as much as you think you would as you wait. The base will be in shadow anyway. The woods won't be side-by-side for comparison as you can put them now.
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Carolyn
"It's good to know, but it's better to understand." Auze Jackson
www.carriesmission.com
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Richard D.
Off his rocker
Registered: 01/28/07
Posts: 6307
Loc: Los Angeles
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Let it darken naturally. As you've mentioned and we have seen examples on WN, setting it in the sun can cause warps, cracks and weakened joinery. The projects I have built from Cherry look better now than when I built them. A brighter room will speed the process.
It is nice to realize that every few years I appreciate a piece more and more. Instant gratification will wear off.
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RD
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DanielBerlin
Member
Registered: 12/31/07
Posts: 726
Loc: Mountain View, CA
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Richard D. said:
Let it darken naturally. As you've mentioned and we have seen examples on WN, setting it in the sun can cause warps, cracks and weakened joinery. The projects I have built from Cherry look better now than when I built them. A brighter room will speed the process.
It is nice to realize that every few years I appreciate a piece more and more. Instant gratification will wear off.
If you don't want to set it in the sun, make a box with light balasts and put UV bulbs in them. It will darken very quickly.
(The reason for the box is that the exposure is not good for *you*)
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Bøb
Member
Registered: 10/13/06
Posts: 1296
Loc: S.E. Tennessee
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If you want to test the Lye method for yourself (and, THAT is the only good way to determine if you like the effect) ... pick up a small container of Lye crystals (Sodium Hydroxide) at Lowe's or your box store of choice ... it is getting a bit harder to find it, but not impossible ... seems it's yet another major ingredient in the manufacture of Meth.
A small spoonful of Lye to about a quart of water is a good starting place ... more or less concentration simply determines the speed of the color change ... not the intensity. With a rag, simply flood it on and watch it age in a matter of seconds/minutes. When it gets close to the color you want, rinse it with clear water. Some folks recommend a mild vinegar rinse to freeze the reaction, and neutralize the Lye, because they feel it's presence may be detrimental to finish adhesion. I use a pretty weak solution ... it is much more safe and controllable ... I don't take this step, but it's perfectly acceptable if you so choose.
Should you be at all dissatisfied with your results, you can reverse the effect almost as fast by simply wiping the surface with household Bleach ... no need to sand or plane away any material.
I've used this method with (what I consider to be) great success on many occasions. I usually stop far short of a complete transformation ... letting the Lye give the piece a nice, even headstart, then allowing nature & time to take over & finish the process.
Here is a photo of a small bookcase where I used Lye for color, and topcoated with several ultra thin applications of WATERLOX. The piece has continued to darken slightly, but this was only intended as a kickstart in order to get rid of the pale sickly color that it once had, so, again, I used a mild solution and stopped the process before the change was complete.
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Now let us retract the foreskin of misconception and apply the wire brush of enlightenment.
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iublue
Member
Registered: 07/08/07
Posts: 1211
Loc: Indiana
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I guess I will relay my standard caution about cherry and direct sunlight. While the cherry will darken initially, continued direct exposure over a long period of time will actually bleach out the color.
It has happened to me and my cherry cabinets.
It also happened to me and a mahogany piece that I made my wife. The mahogany is a good 3-4 shades lighter today than when it was made. Both the cabinets and mahogany piece was exposed to direct morning sunlight.
Cherry in my house that was not in direct sunlight is a beautiful shade of red today. Seems to get darker every year.
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Tim Becker
Honored Veteran, Plane Valet
Registered: 11/13/02
Posts: 40608
Loc: Vail, Arizona
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I use potassium dichromate. Take precautions if you use it. I'm sure someone will be along soon to tell me I shouldn't but it works for David Marks and me.
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“As a result of your posts, you now have convinced me of agreeing to your point of view”
- nobody....ever
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RLMillard
Member
Registered: 03/03/08
Posts: 453
Loc: Dayton Ohio
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KingwoodFan1989,
If your table top is well fastened to the base, I think it would be okay to put it in the sun. I have done this with mahogany, and it turned out perfectly. I only put it out in the morning sun, which isn't as intense. Cherry darkens surprisingly quickly, so it shouldn't take long to achieve your match.
I would avoid any kind of artificial coloring, especially lye. I often use lye to color cherry, but it isn't a good choice for the subtle coloring that happens when raw cherry just sits for a while.
Rob Millard
www.americanfederalperiod.com
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Bøb
Member
Registered: 10/13/06
Posts: 1296
Loc: S.E. Tennessee
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Just did a little reading about Potassium Dichromate, and, I think I might order some and make up some sample boards for comparison. Any opinion as to color comparisons between the PD and Lye ??? Is the PD more red/brown/orange ???
So far, I've been pleased with the Lye, but I'm always open to new ideas, especially if they offer a look or color that is significantly different. I always like to share the options with customers, letting THEM decide what they want/like. I'll spray it flat black if that's what they want to pay for ... nothing "sacred" about any species as far as I'm concerned.
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Now let us retract the foreskin of misconception and apply the wire brush of enlightenment.
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Tim Becker
Honored Veteran, Plane Valet
Registered: 11/13/02
Posts: 40608
Loc: Vail, Arizona
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PD makes cherry more brown than red in my experience.
PDalso works well with white oak and lyptus. Using PD followed by a medium red mahogany dye followed by a clear finish makes lyptus look like dark rosewood.
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“As a result of your posts, you now have convinced me of agreeing to your point of view”
- nobody....ever
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Bøb
Member
Registered: 10/13/06
Posts: 1296
Loc: S.E. Tennessee
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RLMillard said:
I would avoid any kind of artificial coloring, especially lye. I often use lye to color cherry, but it isn't a good choice for the subtle coloring that happens when cherry just sits for a while.
Rob Millard
www.americanfederalperiod.com
Care to define "artificial coloring" ... all Lye does is to speed up what is going to happen over time ... how can suntanning be "natural", but Lye is "artificial" ???
I would think that "natural" implies simply leaving it to change on it's own ... ANYTHING that accelerates the process might be considered artificial, so, you are simply condemning one form of artificial in favor of another.
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Now let us retract the foreskin of misconception and apply the wire brush of enlightenment.
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Bøb
Member
Registered: 10/13/06
Posts: 1296
Loc: S.E. Tennessee
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Tim Becker said:
PD makes cherry more brown than red in my experience.
PDalso works well with white oak and lyptus. Using PD followed by a medium red mahogany dye followed by a clear finish makes lyptus look like dark rosewood.
Considering that Lye prices have risen significantly, I do believe I'll be trying the PD in the near future. I've also read where one can apply some tannic acid to areas of sapwood prior to the PD wash, and it helps even out the color ... ever tried that approach ???
http://www.shellac.net/Dichromate-Tannin.html
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Now let us retract the foreskin of misconception and apply the wire brush of enlightenment.
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Tim Becker
Honored Veteran, Plane Valet
Registered: 11/13/02
Posts: 40608
Loc: Vail, Arizona
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No I haven't.
What customers want is what they want. What I mean by that is that the average customer doesn't really care about the species, they care about color. I learned the hard way twice. Once when I built a set of end tables for a customer and they wanted cherry. When I delivered it they said, "that's not cherry" it isn't dark enough. 
Another was when I delivered a mahogany shadow box to a customer and he claimed it wasn't mahogany because it didn't match his "mahogany" bedroom set. He supplied a drawer front from his bedroom set for me to match. It was poplar stained van dyke brown and the salesperson told him it was mahogany.
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“As a result of your posts, you now have convinced me of agreeing to your point of view”
- nobody....ever
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Dave Diaman
Member
Registered: 01/27/06
Posts: 2153
Loc: Bel Air, MD
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Bob,
I use a product called Wood Ager made by Wood Finishers Depot. It isn’t as harsh as the pot di or lye and works really well on cherry and mahogany. You can control the color pretty well by changing the concentration. It also tends to give the cherry more of a red look than a lot of the other chemicals I have used. This cherry piece was finished with the wood ager in about a 50% concentration
This mahogany piece was finished with 15-20% solution
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David Diaman
www.Diamanwoodcrafters.com
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Funky Space Cowboy
Sharpens with Fairy Dust
Registered: 12/21/05
Posts: 2396
Loc: Houston TX
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If lye and potassium dichromate aren't chemicals you want to mess with I've had good luck using a saturated sodium carbonate (washing soda) solution to age/darken cherry, sapele and red oak. I even wrote a little how-to article on the process a while back. To be fair I have experimented with it on cherry and like the results of my tests but have never used it on a project made of cherry. I have used the linked process to color a red oak project and of course the sapele project documented in the PDF.
The nice thing about sodium carbonate compared to lye and PD is that it's safe to handle and maybe more importantly can be safely disposed of with normal household waste when you're done.
Of course please test on some scrap from your current project before taking my, or anyone's, finishing advice! Make sure it will work for your actual circumstances.
Cheers,
Josh
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The Acerbic Work Shop
Follow me on google +
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Dan Willy
Member
Registered: 02/17/10
Posts: 51
Loc: Shippenville, PA, USA
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Steve N said:
Please allow me to Google that for you
Nice. First time I've ever seen that site. I'll have to remember that!
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DJW
"So I did what any sensible woodworker would do in my situation: drink." - Chris Yates
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iublue
Member
Registered: 07/08/07
Posts: 1211
Loc: Indiana
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Those are some fantastic looking pieces Dave.
They definitely have a WOW factor.
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jnesmith
Member
Registered: 01/02/03
Posts: 1776
Loc: Tallahassee, Fl
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I've only skimmed the many replies, so forgive me if I am about to be redundant.
I have had very good success with an application of UV light. Sunlight. About 20 hours total did what I wanted.
WRT lye, I tired it once on Mahogany. I found that it raised the grain, and when I sanded it back, I also sanded away most of the effect. And, unevenly.
Use UV, or just wait.
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John
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Arlin Eastman
Honored VeteranBronze Medal with Valor Purple Heart x2
Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 3841
Loc: Council Bluffs, IA
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Humanbackhoe said:
I wouldn't do anything to the cherry. The natural darkening starts immediately and will change quite a bit in two weeks. Certainly, I wouldn't set wood in direct sunlight, as, ambient sunlight will change the wood anyway, especially a table top, without risk of warp.
Be patient
Andrew
I have a DVD that says the samething Andrew said.
Arlin
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It is always the right time, to do the right thing!
Loving Hands Memory Boxes
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Arlin Eastman
Honored VeteranBronze Medal with Valor Purple Heart x2
Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 3841
Loc: Council Bluffs, IA
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Dave Diaman said:
Bob,
I use a product called Wood Ager made by Wood Finishers Depot. It isn’t as harsh as the pot di or lye and works really well on cherry and mahogany. You can control the color pretty well by changing the concentration. It also tends to give the cherry more of a red look than a lot of the other chemicals I have used. This cherry piece was finished with the wood ager in about a 50% concentration
This mahogany piece was finished with 15-20% solution
Dave
They look great.
Do you do the treat the wood before or after to get the edges too.
Arlin
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It is always the right time, to do the right thing!
Loving Hands Memory Boxes
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Dave Diaman
Member
Registered: 01/27/06
Posts: 2153
Loc: Bel Air, MD
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Arlin Eastman said:
Dave Diaman said:
Bob,
I use a product called Wood Ager made by Wood Finishers Depot. It isn’t as harsh as the pot di or lye and works really well on cherry and mahogany. You can control the color pretty well by changing the concentration. It also tends to give the cherry more of a red look than a lot of the other chemicals I have used. This cherry piece was finished with the wood ager in about a 50% concentration
This mahogany piece was finished with 15-20% solution
Dave
They look great.
Do you do the treat the wood before or after to get the edges too.
Arlin
I don't really understand your question Arlin. It looks like half of the words in the question are missing 
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David Diaman
www.Diamanwoodcrafters.com
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Rick LoDico
Member
Registered: 11/12/99
Posts: 2380
Loc: Ewing, NJ USA
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Dave's suggestion sounds pretty good to me and I'll give that a try. You might also just try some Natural Danish Oil on a piece of scrap and see how you like that.
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Richard D.
Off his rocker
Registered: 01/28/07
Posts: 6307
Loc: Los Angeles
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Kingwood,
By the time you get around to gathering up the materials for some of the recommended concoctions, the Cherry top will probably have caught up to the base. With all the work you have put in to that veneered top, the safest bet is to let it happen naturally and be patient. Sometimes, less is more.
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RD
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Scoony
Honored Veteran
Registered: 01/28/06
Posts: 3243
Loc: Kentucky
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I have also had success with washing soda on both cherry and mahogany.
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Bøb
Member
Registered: 10/13/06
Posts: 1296
Loc: S.E. Tennessee
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Lemme' see now ... mu local Lowe's is about 3 minutes away .. soooo .. 3 minutes to Lowe's ... another 3-5 minutes to pick up my Lye & Pool pH enhancer (washing soda) ... another 3 minutes home. Assuming heavy traffic, it should take less than 20 minutes for me to run around, gathering all of my concoction materials ... if you claim you can beat that ... well ... let's just say it can't be done.
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Now let us retract the foreskin of misconception and apply the wire brush of enlightenment.
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Arlin Eastman
Honored VeteranBronze Medal with Valor Purple Heart x2
Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 3841
Loc: Council Bluffs, IA
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Dave
Sorry - What I am asking is, when you stain the wood is it already cut and planed to the right demention then stained and how do you get the endgrain to look good too.
I had to retype this twice. 
Arlin
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It is always the right time, to do the right thing!
Loving Hands Memory Boxes
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Dave Diaman
Member
Registered: 01/27/06
Posts: 2153
Loc: Bel Air, MD
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Arlin,
The piece is completely assembled and ready to finish. You need to pre-raise the grain. I just use a spray bottle with some water and then knock down the fuzzies with a very light sanding then hose the piece down. I soak everything I want to age and then wipe off the excess. You need to really pay attention to places where the liquid can pool or you will end up with darker areas but the stuff works great and creates a really nice warm red color. I also have another product that turns the wood a more brown color but in general my customers like the red tone better. One benefit to the product that turns the wood brown is it also works on white woods like tiger maple and poplar.
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David Diaman
www.Diamanwoodcrafters.com
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mongo
Member
Registered: 12/10/05
Posts: 4594
Loc: Largo, FL
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Dave Diaman said:
Arlin,
The piece is completely assembled and ready to finish. You need to pre-raise the grain. I just use a spray bottle with some water and then knock down the fuzzies with a very light sanding then hose the piece down. I soak everything I want to age and then wipe off the excess. You need to really pay attention to places where the liquid can pool or you will end up with darker areas but the stuff works great and creates a really nice warm red color. I also have another product that turns the wood a more brown color but in general my customers like the red tone better. One benefit to the product that turns the wood brown is it also works on white woods like tiger maple and poplar.
Dave,
Does this ageing product have the same safety issues and disposal issues of potassium dicromate?
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Brad
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Dave Diaman
Member
Registered: 01/27/06
Posts: 2153
Loc: Bel Air, MD
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No, that is one of the big reasons I like it so much.
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David Diaman
www.Diamanwoodcrafters.com
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jon003
Member
Registered: 01/26/07
Posts: 1931
Loc: Wayland, MA
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You can't get that authentic aged look with anything but time, imho.
But one thing I've seen do a decent job of bringing some real color in was to get some direct sunlight onto the wood.
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The Bespoke Woodworker Blog
My Gallery
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RLMillard
Member
Registered: 03/03/08
Posts: 453
Loc: Dayton Ohio
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Bob,
Rob Millard Quote:
Care to define "artificial coloring" ... all Lye does is to speed up what is going to happen over time ... how can suntanning be "natural", but Lye is "artificial" ???
I would think that "natural" implies simply leaving it to change on it's own ... ANYTHING that accelerates the process might be considered artificial, so, you are simply condemning one form of artificial in favor of another.
I'm not condemning anything. If you read my entire post, you'd see that I often use lye to color cherry, just as I use lime to color mahogany. It is just that lye is not the best way to blend the slight coloring that takes place when a project sits for a while.
Rob Millard
www.americanfederalperiod.com
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Richard D.
Off his rocker
Registered: 01/28/07
Posts: 6307
Loc: Los Angeles
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Bøb said:
Lemme' see now ... mu local Lowe's is about 3 minutes away .. soooo .. 3 minutes to Lowe's ... another 3-5 minutes to pick up my Lye & Pool pH enhancer (washing soda) ... another 3 minutes home. Assuming heavy traffic, it should take less than 20 minutes for me to run around, gathering all of my concoction materials ... if you claim you can beat that ... well ... let's just say it can't be done.
Considering you had double knee replacement two weeks ago I'll guess that you wouldn't be able to run anywhere and with the meds you're on you probably shouldn't drive anywhere either. I'll also guess that the meds are why all your posts are argumentative and just sound angry, at least I hope that's why.
For all the good advice on methods to darken cherry people should keep in mind that the OP, Kingwood is a new woodworker AND he is just trying to match a rebuilt top to a base he completed a few weeks ago. If you are proposing he should use any other method then patience to let the top catch up to the UV darkened base then you are doing him no favor.
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RD
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Bøb
Member
Registered: 10/13/06
Posts: 1296
Loc: S.E. Tennessee
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Richard D. said:
Considering you had double knee replacement two weeks ago I'll guess that you wouldn't be able to run anywhere and with the meds you're on you probably shouldn't drive anywhere either. I'll also guess that the meds are why all your posts are argumentative and just sound angry, at least I hope that's why.
For all the good advice on methods to darken cherry people should keep in mind that the OP, Kingwood is a new woodworker AND he is just trying to match a rebuilt top to a base he completed a few weeks ago. If you are proposing he should use any other method then patience to let the top catch up to the UV darkened base then you are doing him no favor.
Actually, it's been almost five weeks now, and I only take the meds on physical therapy days in order to get past the pain.
Waiting is definitely one way to let the Cherry even out ... HOWEVER ... the original question was asking about ALTERNATIVE METHODS that would speed up the process !!! He now has a pretty good set of recommendations from which to choose ... THAT ... my friend IS doing him a favor, by simply answering his question(s) without making absurd comments. If he is going to be using Cherry on a regular basis, it is in his best interest to know ALL of his options, so HE, and HE ALONE can make an informed decision as to what is best for him.
As to your "challenge" regarding the speed differential between suntanning and chemically accelerated coloration, I think by now you fully realize the absurdity of the comments, so now you're back, trying to pick a fight. Not going to happen, my friend ... the question has had many answers ... most of them entirely suitable ... hopefully OP has learned from the thread what some of his better options might be ...CASE CLOSED as far as my end is concerned.
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Now let us retract the foreskin of misconception and apply the wire brush of enlightenment.
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Richard D.
Off his rocker
Registered: 01/28/07
Posts: 6307
Loc: Los Angeles
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Bob, you're right, about everything.
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RD
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jnesmith
Member
Registered: 01/02/03
Posts: 1776
Loc: Tallahassee, Fl
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jon003 said:
You can't get that authentic aged look with anything but time, imho.
But one thing I've seen do a decent job of bringing some real color in was to get some direct sunlight onto the wood.
I'm sorry, but I have to ask: Did you read the thread before making that particular recommendation?
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John
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JGrout
member
Registered: 08/04/02
Posts: 23304
Loc: Axial CO
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LIL:
I have stayed out of this since my first post (patience  )
but now that I have the job nearly completed I thought I would show you some 8 YO cabinets and some I started about 2 weeks ago
Finish is aged cherry
Can you point out the new units VS the old
here is one hint: the island is part old and part new.
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