DallasStarter
Member
Registered: 02/07/08
Posts: 1720
Loc: Dallas, TX
|
|
First, the apology: I'm sure this question has been asked a thousand times here, so let me apologize for having missed the answers that have been provided in the past. Hopefully those of you who have a perspective on my question will be passionate enough about it to answer again, and if not it will be my loss and my own fault. Now, to the question.
So, I'm terrible at finishing. That's how I feel about it anyway. I feel that this is mostly due to my poor technique, which is difficult for me to account for as its not for lack of trying to educate myself. I read WWing content voraciously (including finishing advice and techniques) but for some reason, while I generally find instructional text, pics, and videos on everything else to be easy to pick up, there does not appear to be a similar uptake with the finishing.
At this point, the best finishes I've been able to achieve have been with wiping varnishes. I find it to be incredibly tedious and inconsistent in the results it provides, and I often feel like I'm chasing my tail. Logic would dictate that I ought to be able to get to the bottom of what is going wrong if I apply myself, but I nonetheless feel like the important ingredients to success elude me.
So I'm now considering jumping over into HVLP. I believe firmly in buying high-quality tools, so from what I can tell the least of the units that I'm considering it the Earlex 6900. However, I'm not opposed to jumping up to the Fuji Minimite either the 3 or maybe even the 4. I'm only able to to get into the shop enough to turn out 5-8 projects per year, so it's not like the thing is going to be seeing production level usage. But I do want it to be solid, and I've come to hate plastic (hence my reticence with the Earlex). The Apollo units look to be very high-end, but the price diff over comparable 3-stage units is considerable. Basically, I'm interested in people's opinions on these or comparable units ($500-$1000) range.
I'm also interested in advice people have about spraying-specific education. Books if really excellent, videos better if possible. I'd really love to enjoy finishing instead of loathing it. I don't mind sanding and all that if the results are consistent and worth the effort, so its not that I want a great finish without working at it. I just want my effort to be focused, as I now feel like 80% of my effort is misapplied due to my poor technique/approach to finishing.
Any advice on any of the above it most appreciated! Thanks WN!
Reed
--------------------
You don't need a parachute to go skydiving unless you want to do it more than once. . .
|
NiteWalker
Member
Registered: 03/12/06
Posts: 5907
Loc: Albany, NY
|
|
For a book, there's two that are really good; Jeff Jewitt's Spray Finishing Made Simple is a book and dvd set that covers turbines as well as compressor based systems. It's especially suited for beginners. It pretty much taught me how to spray.
The other is Andy Charron's Spray Finishing. I grabbed it after seeing Howie mention it a few times. It's a great reference as well.
As for the turbines, I don't know much, but from what I've read, the more stages a unit has the better it is, so I'd go for the best you can afford.
--------------------
"I buy tools so i can make more money, so I can buy more tools so I can work more, to make more money, so I can buy more tools, so I can work more..."
"Happiness is seeing that big brown truck pull up in front of the house".
|
JR1
Member
Registered: 09/09/10
Posts: 6546
Loc: Teller country, Co, USA
|
|
I have an older Earlex precursor to the 5500. I've had it for about 5 years and so far its been great. Their service and parts availability is very good as is customer support. I don't know any one with the 6900. I have an acquaintance who has the 7200 and has been very happy with it.
A friend just got an Apollo 835 and likes it a lot so far. McFeeleys has good prices on Apollo and a couple cabinet shops I deal with have the older 3 and 4 stage units and are very happy with them.
A couple observations:
You don't want to spray oil finishes, oil paint is different.
With the lighter units you will have problems with thick finishes. I sprayed latex with my Earlex but had to use flowtrol to get a good result.
A lot depends on the number and size of your projects. My Earlex is fine as mostly I do relatively small areas. If I regularly did say 24"x8' I'd definitely want a larger unit.
I mostly spray waterbornes, Crystalac 2001, POly-ox, or GF and shellac.
BTW you might want to try shellac before investing in spray gear. It wipes on easily and a good book is this one French polish is just a fancy name for a wipe on technique. If you are interested try zisser its cheap but check the date on the can.
As for books on spray finishing the Spray Finishing Made Simple: A Book and Step-by-Step Companion DVD is the best I've hit.
--------------------
homo homini lupus
|
Lumber Yard®
Member
Registered: 12/30/06
Posts: 9693
Loc: Behind a computer screen.
|
|
Reed,
Most wood finishes (oil base excluded) are fairly easy to spray w/ a HVLP conversion gun or a HVLP turbine unit. Spraying will change the way you feel about finishing. 
Alright, so what gear do you buy? 
You have asked about turbines but don't be afraid of HVLP conversion guns if you have a decent compressor. I jump between the two types of set-ups in my shop and like certain things about both set-ups. If you have a decent compressor a cheap HVLP conversion gun can put you in the game for under $50. Obviously you can spend several hundred on a conversion gun but ultimately wood finishes are so easy to spray you won't find a whole lot of difference in the finished product. I have $20 HF guns and $350 name brand automotive guns and the $20 guns do just as well as the expensive ones with most wood finishes.
I also, have an Apollo 3 stage turbine set-up (current model 835) and it is a joy to use as well. The truth is I never would have purchased this unit new as I believe the conversion guns do such a good job and the decent turbines are big $$$. Regardless in my "deal hunting" a used one came up at an estate sale a couple years ago and I purchased it with the intention to resell. Well, after using it I changed my mind and it has found a new home in my shop. This 3-stage Apollo retails for close to a grand and it does perform well. With that for the same money a nice compressor and decent HVLP conversion gun could be purchased. Obviously a decent compressor would be much more versatile than a turbine which is single purpose.
In summary, the spraying game will change the way you think about finishing but you don't have to spend big bucks. Spraying wood finishes is fairly easy and most set-ups perform fairly well reagardless if you spent $50 on a HVLP conversion gun or a grand on a HVLP turbine unit.
HTH
--------------------
"I don't lie, but I sometime I make up figures..." Puffin 1-1-2013 aka SML
|
d-alan
Member
Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 3
Loc: so cal
|
|
New "kid" on the forum here and I don't intend to hijack your thread Reed -BTW, I wish I had written that posting, well composed.
I'd like to follow up on Lumber Yard's comments, if he is still watching this thread, with a question: You mention conversion guns, could you elaborate a little more? What exactly is a conversion gun?
I also need to expand my finishing skills into spraying. Unfortunately, I can't financially justify a turbine so I have been looking at the Earlex type systems but had hoped to use my existing compressor, a P/C 20 gallon, 1.5hp, oiless, hot dog style (C5101) that possibly delivers 7.2 scfm @40 psi / 5.3 scfm @ 90psi. I say possibly because I bought this compressor several years ago when such numbers weren't under any regulation. (The sticker on the unit actually claims 7 peak HP and 60 gallons.  ) More recent versions of similar compressors claim the numbers I mention above.
In any case, I'm not sure which type of gun, much less which brand/model I should be looking to pair with this compressor, or if the compressor is even up to the job. Like many, I have to mind the dollars and sense of my purchases but I am a firm believer in getting as much tool quality as possible so I have only myself to blame if something screws up.
And what of LVLP ? Some of the non-forum reading I have been doing touts this as possibly a better way to go than HVLP.
I also like the idea of a pressure pot as opposed to a siphon or gravity feed gun. Seems like this would allow more freedom in movement of the gun but I haven't seen much mention of their use in furniture work. Are they that much more effort to use and service than cup mount guns?
Could HTH or someone in the know throw out some specific gun models and brands I should be looking at? I can afford $100 - $150 for a gun. I also assume I need to drop another $50 - $75 for a decent moisture filter on the compressor, so if there are any recommendations as to that equipment, I'm all ears.
Ok, last subject: What about pressure regulators? For wood finishes, how accurate do they need to be? Should I consider installing a quality regulator downstream of the compressor?
I should probably mention that my intent would be to spray water and oil base finishes with the possibility of expanding into lacquers.
cheers,
alan
--------------------
We have met the enemy, and he is us.
Pogo
|
tsproul
Member
Registered: 01/14/03
Posts: 8638
Loc: Livermore, CA
|
|
Call Jeff Jewitt at his homestead finishing store - get his Qualspray gun as that is in your price range and works well.
As for pressure regulators - they are overrated. You will need a regulator so you can pressure the pot - and your incliniation is spot on to go this way although a pressure pot can also ride on the gun too). Get the pressure enough at the compressor regulator and then use the cheater screw to reduce the airflow at the gun.
Waterbornes spray well. Oil based? No - they take forever to dry and so you get overspray sticking to everything within a 50 foot radius. Solvent based like lacquer or catalyzed finishes also are good to spray but require you to have appropriate ventilation or if the project isn't too large, to spray outdoors.
LVLP is a name for conversion guns that don't meet the 10psi (or thereabouts) at the gun requirement for HVLP. They can work well too and were really made for hobbyists with lower capacity compressors.
--------------------
Tim
On the neverending quest for wood.
And yes, routers precede electrical utility companies.
|
JR1
Member
Registered: 09/09/10
Posts: 6546
Loc: Teller country, Co, USA
|
|
++1 on homestead .
The guys I know who use LVLP are auto body shops, they have a little less blow back and they can run more guns without upgrading their compressor.
As for oil based don't spray it! If you are painting a house and use an airless or combo setup then fine.
Paint pots (fluid feed) are available for Apollo and some conversion guns but you are talking a production piece of gear and $500+ for a good one. The paint shops that I know are mostly auto body and they pay more like $1000. That's plus the spray rig.
BTW welcome!
--------------------
homo homini lupus
Edited by JR1 (05/29/12 05:04 PM)
|
mongo
Member
Registered: 12/10/05
Posts: 4592
Loc: Largo, FL
|
|
Posted from this discussion-
After several years I am still in love with the unit.
http://www.forums.woodnet.net/ubbthreads...part=1&vc=1
mongo said:
First a little back ground:
If you dont care about why I bought the tool only about the tool itself skip down a few paragraphs.
Earlier this year I decided I that I wanted to make the jump into the world of spray finishes for two reasons. First I wanted to be able to consistently produce a quality finish. Second I wanted to be able to do so in a timely manner. I still have a thought in the back of my head that someday I am going to do this for a living instead of just for fun.
Originally I was thinking about getting an Earlex spray gun but after having a chance to examine both the Earlex and the Apollo and see both in action and talk to the salesman at the woodworking show in Tampa I decided it was time to only cry once. With the move to WB finishes occurring ever more rapidly with environmental pressures I didnt want to buy a tool that wold not shoot what I wanted in the future. WB finishes also meant I can spray without a spray booth. I also wanted the ability to shoot latex paint should the need arise. So I decided to go to a 4 stage system.
The system included their 7500t Spray gun. It is a truly a thing of beauty. High polish for easy cleaning and the even air distribution. You can see in my pics below. There is a little spray buildup I need to clean off..... The air caps are
I was planing to get the 4 stage 1025 unit and in fact placed an order for it at the show. When I got home and started pricing out all the other caps an needles I was going to eventually want I realized it was just about the same price to get the 1040vs (4 stage with variable pressure) that included all the caps and needles I will ever need so I called in and changed my order.
Of course the proof is in the pudding so I waited to write this until I had a chance to shoot some different finishes and get a feel for the system. I have now shot latex paint, WB lacquer, WB shellac and automotive lacquer. All finishes came out better than expected. As a first time sprayer this was really exciting and relieving. I painted a few parts for a buddies car and the look like they came right from the factory. I also have done some cabinets with paint and the shellac and lacquer on cherry cabinet.
Cost for the unit was around $1500
Specs from the website:
http://www.hvlp.com/turbine_detail.php?id=6
"Specifications:
* 4 Stage
* 8.0 PSI (.055 bar)
* 130 CFM (3.68 cmm)
* Dual Air Filtration
* HVLP Only - Single Spray Gun
* 110VAC - 60HZ or 240VAC - 50Hz
* 30 lbs/13.6 Kg
* 15" X 8.5" X 12" (38.1cm X 21.6cm X 30.48cm)
* All EU units shipped
* All 110 volt units are tested and certified by"
I got 5 needles 3 caps and the quart and mini cup.
The tool arrived well packaged via UPS.-
The gun comes packed in a nice case with all the needles and caps. Also the tools and a few spare seals for the cups.
WOOOO Shiny.... 
The hose comes with a section of whip pre attached so no extra purchase was nessisary.
The turnbine itself-
VS control- actually nice to have this. Didnt think I would use it but I do.
The unit deployed-
A finished product. I wish I had taken pics of the auto stuff.
---------
--------------------
Brad
|
NiteWalker
Member
Registered: 03/12/06
Posts: 5907
Loc: Albany, NY
|
|
JR1 said:
++1 on homestead .
+1 more for homestead.
I bought my gun, the QS-125WB and bigger cup, after exchanging several emails and calls with Jeff.
I'm very happy with my purchase and will get the bigger gun as soon as I upgrade my compressor.
--------------------
"I buy tools so i can make more money, so I can buy more tools so I can work more, to make more money, so I can buy more tools, so I can work more..."
"Happiness is seeing that big brown truck pull up in front of the house".
Edited by NiteWalker (05/30/12 10:51 PM)
|
d-alan
Member
Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 3
Loc: so cal
|
|
Thank you, everyone, for the input. Looks like I will be calling Homestead in the near future. Congrats on the Apollo rig Brad, that must be a great system to work with.
If anyone else wants to kick in an opinion or suggestion, please do. I will be back.
a
--------------------
We have met the enemy, and he is us.
Pogo
|
rhino
Member
Registered: 09/30/05
Posts: 6109
Loc: Cincinnati, OH
|
|
Homestead is great.
If you are going with a conversion gun, make sure that you have enough CFM from your compressor.
I spray every once in a while, because I only spary waterborne, so I went with a conversion gun. I use the PC PSH 1 (or 3, I have them both and use the larger one). I lose more on overspray, but I bought it on special from Amazon a few years back for next to nothing. I also have a few tips for different viscosity. I also have a HF gun I use for shellac - and I don't clean it. A little alcohol in the gun before I use it cleans it up enough for the next round.
If I had the money, I would get a nice fancy HVLP set up. For the weekend warrior though, the conversion gun and a decent compressor will do what you need IMHO. I will need to waste a LOT of material before I would earn a payback, and I just don't have the volume. My big spray jobs are kitchen cabinets, and the cost of materials is not absurd.
I do, however, spray outside, or in the winter inside my garage going outside.
Just my .02.
--------------------
Tools that are no good require greater skill.
|
jnesmith
Member
Registered: 01/02/03
Posts: 1770
Loc: Tallahassee, Fl
|
|
If you are not in a hurry, you might watch CL for a used turbine unit. My compressor (which I otherwise love) is too small for serious finishing, so I patiently watched CL for many months. I finally came across a 4-stage Graco unit for $250, which retails for well over $1K.
I still occasionally use a wipe-on wipe-off BLO/MS/Varnish finish on smaller items, but I use the Graco for everything else. The learning curve was not nearly as bad as I thought it would be.
--------------------
John
|
d-alan
Member
Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 3
Loc: so cal
|
|
Thanks for the additional feedback. Sorry it's taken so long to get back to this, I've been laying in a new floor (300 sq.ft. of engineered hickory over a slab).
One of the big hold-backs for me right now is my compressor. I don't know how much it really puts out. I found a few internet "formulas" to determine output, just haven't had time to sit down with them yet, and, at best, they seem to be good estimates.
Yeah, I have been watching CL for a turbine -which I think I would really rather have, but I either have to have a few months of good paychecks for something with little or no use, or, score a "you suck" deal.
cheers,
alan
--------------------
We have met the enemy, and he is us.
Pogo
|
Previous
Index
Next
Threaded
HVLP Recommendations (with apologies)
Edit
Reply
Quote
[Re: