Daryl Weir
Member
Registered: 01/01/06
Posts: 520
Loc: Knoxville, IL
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Hi all,
I know I've talked about sharpening a acme 120 but never went into detail on the process. Thought I would share some info and pics as I go.
I picked this old acme 11ppi panel saw up from ebay and yes, I probably paid to much for it but I thought it was worth it. This is only the handle as the blade is in the vise. 


This is the first acme with patent dates stamped in the handle that I've owned. I'll show the etching later but the early ones didn't have the secondary etching stating that basically the saw being very hard should not be set.
Jointing needs to be done as one side of the teeth were a little higher than the other and aren't properly shaped. This shows up after jointing as one side having a bigger land than the other.
I have made some gauges for a cant saw file. Yes, I do use those darn blocks that some people seem to hate. I only use them for initial shaping to maintain the angles and them loose them for the bevel filing or final sharpening. These have always worked for me and have never seemed to be a pain in the, well you know what as some say. As close as I can tell from the Disston book the included angle of the tooth is 47 degrees instead of the normal 60.
The one marked 9 degrees is for the initial shaping,

the 15 degree is for the rake or the front of the tooth

and the 32 degree is for the back of the tooth.

Initial shaping starts with the 9 degree to try and make the gullet a uniform depth and even up the lands left after jointing. Yes, I do count strokes. The ones with a shallower gullet might get a little extra stroke of the file. It's all kind of a hand/eye thing to gauge and judge your progress as far as depth, spacing and shape.
Starting to get pretty equal results so I think its time to start doing the front of the tooth.

Red Dykem is applied so you can see what you're doing. This is a great help and something I always used in the machine shop for layout work. Just dawned on me one day when I was first sharpening to use it for this purpose.
Next the 15 degree gauge is used for shaping the front of the tooth with one stroke:

You can judge your progress by the flat on the top of the tooth and which way pressure needs to be applied.
Next I switch gauges to the 32 degree and do the back of the tooth with one stroke.

Next it just a matter of jumping back and forth between gauges to get the teeth to the correct shape. I know it's kind of a pain but it's worth it in the end. Some people say it doesn't make to much difference in the geometry (one tooth being a little higher, not quite the same shape, etc. ) and the wood won't know the difference. Well the wood might not know but I do and the person using the saw might see a difference too. I know perfection is unatainable by human hands but shouldn't it be strived for in everything we do? I know there's a limit but sometimes people give up to easily. There seems to be an art form in these old tools that has been pretty much lost today in this disposable world we live in. After all this is an "acme" which means the pinnacle/the best, shouldn't every attempt be made to return it to that state.
Anyway here are the teeth shaped to the best of my ability.

Next comes the 30 degree bevel gauge that straddles the saw plate. Just slide it along and use it for a guide. This is were some time gets sucked up as any misguided stroke can ruin the point of the tooth and make it too short. I'm just getting a good start on bevel filing the one side. When this is done I'll have to flip it over and do the other. It was time to stop so this is where it ends for now. I'll keep everyone posted as I continue and the saw is finished.


Take care, Daryl
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Blaine
Member
Registered: 10/29/03
Posts: 5049
Loc: Libertyville, Illinois
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Daryl,
Thanks for displaying the technique you're using to sharpen this saw. I am always amazed at the precision and consistency of your work. And your photography ain't too bad either.
Thanks for sharing.
Blaine
-------------------- "Pinkies up everyone"
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msweig
Member
Registered: 12/14/05
Posts: 2477
Loc: Houston, TX
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That hurts my head. I can understand why you hate sharpening these things.
mark
-------------------- My webpage
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John Clifford
Da Commish
Registered: 11/26/05
Posts: 1381
Loc: Chicago, Il.
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Daryl, thanks for the post, very educational. I know you'll whip it into shape yet.
By the way, the rip saw I sharpened in class cuts great, the cross cut, not so much, when's the next class?
John.
-------------------- "When I nod my head, hit it." - M. Howard.
"I think you should learn how to use hand tools before you even touch a power tool." - Sam Maloof
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evenfall
Cow Tipper
Registered: 04/19/05
Posts: 5187
Loc: Sacramento Area, CA
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Hi Daryl,
Very informational and well documented, I was really enjoying what you were illustrating, and then you said:
Quote:
I know perfection is unatainable by human hands but shouldn't it be strived for in everything we do? I know there's a limit but sometimes people give up to easily. There seems to be an art form in these old tools that has been pretty much lost today in this disposable world we live in.
That really hits home.
I work in a production oriented career field. The culture of it seems to have a divide.
There is an old school and a new school.
Production schedules were always met and are important, but the old school espouses doing your best work no matter how hard or challenging, even if it takes longer. Usually these types are so good, they make perfection look easy. Their ways of instilling this ethic in others were gruff. Few words, little advice, lots of scowls and sideways glances. The message was get good at this and do it soon, no whining. Those learning could see how well they did and when you started to get there, you started getting included in their conversations to and they would start eating their lunch with you.
The new school is all buddy buddy, no one cares how well they do as long as it is close enough, even management is happy if it is close enough and under the schedule. they want to just get it over with as soon and as easily as possible. Fast and easiest way, yet without an eye to the details, and often many of those details are overlooked or omitted for speed, and because they lack the skill to really do them anyway.
Culturally there is an age gap in this quite often, and there is weeping and gnashing when the new school is caught not performing as well as they could, and are reminded that sometimes they are not even meeting certain minimums.
There is no hard fast rule, not always an age gap either, but often there is. Just something I notice in the trades. Some people are inherently perfectionists, or lazy or what have you.
Men like Wayne Anderson and Mike Wenzloff, Bob Zajicek and Ron Brese are for example amongst other people who have no one looking over their shoulder, they are just guys like yourself, imaginatively doing the best they can do. They are not like all people, maybe not even most, but we admire them for doing what they do, pushing to make things as nice as they can and just because they can.
To do things at that level, one has to want to, and push themselves. Results like these people are after are not always fast or easy but come easier with developed proficiency. Results that do not measure up are a reason to keep after it rather than quit, and eventually amazing looking work comes forth that cannot be described without the use of the word fine. Please notice, there was not failure, only results.
In here, we for the most part a type of people who are of a kindred spirit. We want to create, and we want to do as well as we can. Learning these manual skills is not easy. I grew up with them, these are what I did some of my youth and much of my life, but I am the worst player of video games on earth.
In your posts Daryl, you generally do show how nice things can be if one just pays attention to the smaller details, and try to finesse them. Doing them of course helps you become more proficient and helps maintains it, as well as illustrates for others how well something can be done when done well.
This is another installment of the thought process behind what it takes to do things well. It is an ethic, and methodology. There may be many approaches in woodworking or anything, but not all of them lead to fine. Fine has a different way of going about it.
You help remind us that good is the enemy of great, and I for one love being reminded of that. It is an example I have to set for others in my career all the time, and things are not as old school anymore. It is a more difficult thing to do. I hope that others pick this ethic up from you, and thanks for showing close up what going further can really achieve.
-------------------- ~Rob
http://www.evenfallstudios.com/woodworks
Woodworking Knowledge, Skill Development, Discussion
"It's psychosomatic. You need a lobotomy. I'll get a saw."
Calvin & Hobbes
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Ed In Oakville
Member
Registered: 06/17/06
Posts: 338
Loc: Ontario, Canada
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Excellent tutorial Daryl!
Your saw sharpening knowledge astounds me! You seriously should think about getting it all down on paper. I, for one would jump at a chance to read an instructional book written by you!
Afterall Daryl, you're no spring chicken...we should always try to preserve the knowledge of the old timers before they are lost!
Thanks for posting!
Regards,
Ed
-------------------- ...find a job you love to do...never work again...
www.medalliontools.com
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pedder
Member
Registered: 02/20/07
Posts: 240
Loc: Kiel / Germany
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Daryl
I admire your sharpening qualities and the handelrefurbs, too! I would like to learn more about your files, because I#ve never senn such a file in the ww internetshops. 
Cheers Pedder
-------------------- Old Ladies my blog about backed saws and other woodworking tools
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Daryl Weir
Member
Registered: 01/01/06
Posts: 520
Loc: Knoxville, IL
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Finished the first bevel up, it took about 5 strokes in each gullet to get the front and the back of the tooth cleaned up and get to the apex of the each tooth. The regular cant saw file (not safe back) when filed at a 30 degree bevel or fleam angle and held perpendicular to the side of the saw plate will just about produce the right geometry from the initial shaping but does deepen the gullet up which is O.K. The red dykem helps you to see where you're removing material and if you're holding the file in the correct orientation. You just have to look and correct angular rotation of the file.
Then flipped it over and started on the second side:
and here's the completed profile. While I know it's not perfect, it's probably as close as I'm ever going to get. The saw still retains a nice breast to it after all these years.
I had to make a trial cut in a piece of old red oak I had. You won't believe how fast this saw cut for an 11ppi. As I've said before the acme's have a different feel to them than a normal saw with set when cutting. There's some slight friction but each stroke removes quite a bit of material while leaving a good finish. The cutting edge on this one measures in at .040" while a D-8 panel saw I have from close to the same period measures in at .033". The back is a few thousandths thinner than the D-8 also. The extra taper grind provides sufficient running clearance for no set.
Here's a few pics of the finished saw.
Like I said in the first post, notice there is no etch as far as a warning about not setting the saw. There was some discussion I had with another saw collector that the early ones might not be a "no-set". The theory was this being the new skewback that Disston had just patented was the skew back version of the premium No.12 thus becoming the 120 and that the Choice 80 was the skew backed version of the No.8. It's kind of interesting to think about but this saw is definitely a no-set because of the extra taper grind.
I'm glad I bought it! 
Take care, Daryl
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Daryl Weir
Member
Registered: 01/01/06
Posts: 520
Loc: Knoxville, IL
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Blaine thanks for the kudos.
Mark hope your head doesn't hurt to much! 
John I'm not sure when I will do the next class, maybe in the fall?
Rob you're definitely right about the old school and new school and I'm not talking just about the skilled trades, some of it's upper management too. Maybe that's why most of our manufacturing has headed overseas but I won't go there, it's something that still sticks in my craw over a personal job loss that I loved doing.
Ed I'm glad you enjoyed it. I'm not sure I have a ton of knowledge but I'll try to share as much as I can.
Pedder I picked some of the safe back and regular cant saw files from Slav and managed to pick up a box of the regular cant saw files on ebay. I think the Best Things handles cant saw files when I googled "cant saw file".
Take care, Daryl
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Scoony
Member
Registered: 01/28/06
Posts: 1710
Loc: Kentucky
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Could you show more of your saw vice please. I plan on making one and have seen a few plans, but would love to see more so I can gather more ideas for mine.
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