Bwilkins
Member
Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 385
Loc: Katy, TX
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I don't wish to open up any deep metaphysical debate or to spur an argument that has been likely been hashed out here countless times. But now that I have actually have a hand plane arsenal to contend with, I have to ask how one actually assesses flat. Flatness seems to be an obsession, and I have read so much here about the condition of tools that one is left with the assumption that any tool one suddenly comes into possession of WILL HAVE TO BE FLATTENED!!
I did check a late model Stanley FatMax chisel by registering it on a piece of MDF, and yes, I could clearly see a gap in the middle of the blade. So I get that that is not flat.
But, I did a cursory check of each of these vintage planes. My flattest surface, I think, is the bed of my power jointer. I checked each by trying to fit a .006 (my smallest) feeler gauge at all way around each and with the exception of a few at the toe or heel, I could not get that feeler guage to slip under at any point (other than maybe an 1/8" in). I tried the same in each throat just to see if they were snug.
How can this be?? Nothing comes to one flat??
Okay, seriously. How do you check for flatness, not only with planes, but chisels. What do you use as a "flat" reference to register your tool against? How to you determine flatness, and most importanly, what is "flat"?
Please give me your process.
Thanks!
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Gregory of Sherwood Forest
Honored Veteran
Registered: 10/16/07
Posts: 10229
Loc: Fallen UP the stairs 4/2013
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Seriously, your test for flat using the jointer bed and the .006 feeler gauge is WAYYY more precise than you really need to be with vintage planes.
Anyone worth their salt as a woodworker (as opposed to a theoretical ww snob) will tell you that perfection isn't necessary. Ask Rob Lee and Tom Lie-Nielsen if they are lapping their planes because it is necessary for good results, or if they are doing it just because too many woodworkers are thinking wayyyy too much and expect it in their products. Seriously, Ask them.
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" The founding fathers weren't trying to protect citizens' rights to have an interesting hobby." I Learn Each Day 1/18/13
www.RUSTHUNTER.com
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Bwilkins
Member
Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 385
Loc: Katy, TX
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Thanks, Greg. Great insight, much appreciated.
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cputnam
Member
Registered: 01/28/03
Posts: 3788
Loc: Southern California
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IMO, flat is what works good. If your planes work good they are flat - don't mess with them. If they don't work good, flat is maybe the last reason you ought to look for.
Seriously, if the iron is sharp and the chip breaker is properly set most planes will produce nice shavings. You may get closer to perfection (and that may be worth it with some smoothers on some woods) but at least 2/3 to 3/4 of your plane work will be of the coarse and medium grade (read Chris' book) and will not need every little thing fettled to the nth degree.
Edited by cputnam (07/09/12 03:18 AM)
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Carl Grover
Neander heretic
Registered: 07/07/03
Posts: 4288
Loc: North Alabama
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Be careful. It is real easy to get a plane more "not flat" than it originally was by trying to flatten it.
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... The garbage bag just gives it class.
Carl
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Admiral
Member
Registered: 06/26/07
Posts: 6736
Loc: NJ
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+1 on what everybody else said.
The test is how they work when a truly sharp iron is installed. All you really need is the sole to be coplanar at the toe, the heel, and immediately before and after the mouth. I've seen folk really mess up a sole trying to get it absolutely flat when they should have left it alone. The only guy I know who can do that is TS Tom, and he's a retired machinist and has access to the grinders, and has the experience, necessary to do the job properly.
Unless you have a twisted or warped sole, you've likely got what you need.
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Elvem ipsum etiam vivere
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Bwilkins
Member
Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 385
Loc: Katy, TX
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Thanks, everyone!
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AHill
Honored Veteran
Registered: 01/16/06
Posts: 5191
Loc: Antelope Valley, California
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See if you can take nice, wispy shavings with it first. If you can, don't bother trying to attain flatness nirvana. If you can't, then you need to troubleshoot why. There are only a few spots on a sole that need to be flat. The most important is the mouth just forward of the blade, followed by the heel and toe of the plane. Be very, very careful about flattening soles. Early in my hand tool experience, I pretty much ruined the sole of one of my planes trying to get it "flat". If you must, keep the frog and blade installed (blade retracted, of course). Best way to flatten a sole is take it to a machine shop and have them grind it.
At the first WIA, there was a panel of planemakers, including Lie Nielsen, Rob Lee, Economaki, Konrad Sauer, etc. They all agreed that plane soles today are manufactured to higher tolerances for flatness than necessary. I can't remember who made the comment, but one of them bascially said they do it, "because we can, and because there's a perception that flatter is better."
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Still Learning,
Allan Hill
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jgourlay
Just Promoted to troublemaker
Registered: 12/06/02
Posts: 9915
Loc: Houston, Texas
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Gregory of Sherwood Forest said:
Anyone worth their salt as a woodworker (as opposed to a theoretical ww snob) will tell you that perfection isn't necessary. Ask Rob Lee and Tom Lie-Nielsen if they are lapping their planes because it is necessary for good results, or if they are doing it just because too many woodworkers are thinking wayyyy too much and expect it in their products. Seriously, Ask them.
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Hmmmm.....
So I have bronze LN smoother, and a steel older generation "Trustworthy" smoother. World of difference between them, so I went on a tear a few years ago to make the Trustworthy as good. All the 'stuff' made some good difference, but still the TW will simply not do the quality of job on gnarliness that the LN will do. This despite both now have same thickness and composition of blade, equal well fitting chipbreakers, equally tight mouths.
As my will for that project was wearing down, I took both to work and put them on a CMM machine. The main difference I find between them is that the LN was flat to within .0008" while the Trustworthy was flat to with .011".
Is that the key difference? I don't know, but it's the only thing left.
I also happen to know how out-of/Flat my jointer is, and i also know that no board I've jointed has been flatter than that. But it's good enough, more than good enough, so I don't need to fix it.
And that's the real key: is the tool performing? If not, then the fundamental geometry of the tool is one of the things needing interrogation and remediation.
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MAKE: Void your warranty, violate a user agreement, fry a circuit, blow a fuse, poke an eye out... www.makezine.com
No Good Deed Goes Unpunished
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Ingjr
Member
Registered: 06/29/07
Posts: 3325
Loc: Spring Hill, FL.
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I've "flattened" a number of planes on sandpaper and granite and have had what I consider to be good results. That is, the plane is flatter after I'm through than it was before I started. Flat enough? For me they are.
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The older I get the faster I was.
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