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DallasStarter
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Registered: 02/07/08
Posts: 1940
Loc: Dallas, TX
Work Smoother infill Build begins - need advice!
      #6473407 - 08/18/13 06:23 PM

As we're presently in the process of trying to sell our house, I figured it couldn't really start a full-fledged piece of furniture as a next project. So, I decided to pull out the casting from Sturnella and begin work in earnest on this plane. To be honest, I was hoping someone else would post an excellent start-to-finish build-along before me so I'd have something to go on because I have zero experience making planes and only very minimal experience making tools (and certainly nothing as exacting as this!). So, when this turns out a wreck, at least we'll know why!

Anyway, I wanted to begin by preparing the casting. James was nice enough to mill the mouth a bit on the blade side, but he didn't or couldn't go all the way to the sides, so there's some file work to be done in both corners.


I don't have an special files for plane-making, but I knew I needed something thin enough to fit in the mouth, and ideally with a safe edge. Turns out an auger bit file works great as long as you don't have much material to use as was the case here. Still, it took some time, which was probably good to prevent me from overdoing it. Once I had it filed even all the way across, I found that the mouth still needed to be opened up along it's length to accommodate the hock blade. Not a big deal - just a little more file work, which was made easier to be sure by having a safe edge.

I then attempted to remove some of the small jagged irregularities from the pour of the casting - mostly just little guys the size of a large speck of sand, but too big across their base to just sheer off with some blunt force. I didn't have any files that had cutting action all the way out to the edge, so I ground the end of one on my grinder at about 85 degrees and with a slight convexity to allow focused efforts at scraping. This pretty much did the trick and I went about taking down the very high spots on the inside of the casting. The side walls are the easiest to do because you can come in with a small and rigid 120 sanding block after the initial scraping. I didn't get crazy with it, just enough to that the infills could slide in an maintain consistent contact with the sides vs. getting bound up on little rough or high areas.

Then I started thinking about design. I want this to have the general look of this Sauer and Steiner plane:

Which means overstuffed. As it comes out of the form, the casting has a roughish rounded edge all the way around. If I were to overstuff it now, there would be unsightly gaps all around where the infill met the bronze on the side. So, more filing:

Fortunately, I was able to use the high quality of the pour to my advantage. Since it was nice and parallel to the sole, I could file both sides at once in a cross-ways motion to ensure that I was approaching a flat that would also be square to the side. Then I did the rest:


I looked around for suitable infill material and found some mystery exotic that I'd bought at an estate sale a couple of year ago. I think it's rosewood, but really I have no idea. It is very heavy I will tell you that!

I also found some curly probably maple that would also work, but I think I'll probably go with the mystery wood.


Now on to the big questions. What bed angle to shoot for? The angle machined into the bed is about 47.5 degrees. I'm all set with smoothers at 45 and 55 degrees. So should I go even higher? This template was drawn up for 58.5 but perhaps I should go for 60? Or maybe I should calm down and go for 50 (an intermediate angle I don't have)?


Also, do we think there's enough room down there for shavings to be pulled out? How do people feel about the prospective position of the pins for the lever cap? Do I need to worry about leaving more meat around (and especially above) it?


I appreciate everyone's thoughts - especially those of you who have and use infills or especially those who have built them!

Reed


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Souperchicken
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Registered: 12/14/05
Posts: 221
Loc: Frederick, MD USA
Re: Work Smoother infill Build begins - need advice! new [Re: DallasStarter]
      #6473536 - 08/18/13 09:23 PM

Great post, I can't offer answers to the questions but I'll be paying close attention to your thread. Imho it seems you should lean towards a higher angle since this will probably be a specialized smoother for difficult woods but I see your point about throat clearance as you increase pitch. I'm also curious about having a different pitch than the angle he machined at the rear edge of the throat.

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hbmcc
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Registered: 10/25/12
Posts: 840
Loc: Seattle area, Washington State
Re: Work Smoother infill Build begins - need advice! new [Re: DallasStarter]
      #6473615 - 08/18/13 11:14 PM

My ... That mystery wood is a big bite for that little old brass container....

Your mystery exotic looks a lot like what our local Woodcraft is selling as "Lignum". From what I can tell--it is being sold as 4-quarter lumber--it moves a lot. The cut wood (surfaced) has twisted, post processing.

You might want to cut what you intend to use, then keep an eye on it while you do other things.

OTT, I am in thrash-and-learn mode, too.

--------------------
Bruce
There is ... a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss. --Douglas Adams (Woodworking should be as easy.)


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DallasStarter
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Registered: 02/07/08
Posts: 1940
Loc: Dallas, TX
Re: Work Smoother infill Build begins - need advice! new [Re: Souperchicken]
      #6473618 - 08/18/13 11:20 PM

Souperchicken said:


I'm also curious about having a different pitch than the angle he machined at the rear edge of the throat.




This part I don't think matters. I could certainly be wrong, but the Hock iron is quite thick and the bevel is therefore substantial. Because the blade on a bevel down plane cannot be supported in lower than the point at which the bevel begins, the situation in this area should have nothing to do with the bedding of the plane. If it happens to match, that might look nice when the blade it out, but it shouldn't effect performance I don't think. I'll have to take a closer look and ideal get some measurements on it all, but I really don't think the blade will be bedded on anything except the infill.

More questions in the mean time for anyone who might know the answers:

What to use for the lever cap pivot? Some kind of steel? Would I drill the lever cap to tap for a machine screw and then use a screw? Assuming this is the case, would I need to order these two screws from McMaster Carr or Fastenal or something?

If anyone has answers, I'd love to hear 'em!

Reed

--------------------
You don't need a parachute to go skydiving unless you want to do it more than once. . .


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Phil S.
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Registered: 04/24/12
Posts: 1040
Loc: 58.4° N 134.5° W
Re: Work Smoother infill Build begins - need advice! new [Re: DallasStarter]
      #6473637 - 08/19/13 12:05 AM

DallasStarter said:

....
What to use for the lever cap pivot? Some kind of steel? ....
Reed




I was just debating that question last night and was looking at rod at Jamestown Distributors. Steel rod? Bronze rod? Stainless? Some type of bolt? 3/16, 1/4, 5/16? Dunno yet, but watching with interest.

Phil


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Craig D
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Registered: 06/04/09
Posts: 381
Loc: Oregon USA
Re: Work Smoother infill Build begins - need advice! new [Re: DallasStarter]
      #6473651 - 08/19/13 01:13 AM

What to use for the lever cap pivot?
I use O1 drill rod because it is very consistent, O1 because I also use it for other things (Enco, MSC, etc carry it). The rod you get at the hardware store (which I've also used) kinda sorta maybe measures what it is marked at.
I like 3/16" or 1/4".
I've used brass welding rod and that worked (but it was on some smaller planes).
If you want to be able remove the cap (a good thing IMO), I used some kind of SS domed cheese head screw (I think #10) screwed into each side the cap (slide cap into place, insert screw through side and tighten. The head of the screw rides against the sides of the body).

What bed angle to shoot for?
I like 50-55° for smoothers on native NA woods (I have 45 - 60 at about 3° increments). My feeling is, with a single iron, you want at least 50° (lower and a chip breaker seems to really help). I'd also suggest a mouth opening of 0.006 - 0.009" for good all around performance.

Also, do we think there's enough room down there for shavings to be pulled out?
It looks tight to me but it also isn't a big deal - turn the plane over and smack it with your hand and the shaving fall out. I'll also poke a small screw driver down there if something is stuck. I usually put a curve on the back of the bun (after it enters the body) to give a bit more finger room but that is an style call.

--------------------
Craig D Does sawing logs count as woodwork? My blog


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Saradog
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Registered: 08/18/13
Posts: 1
Loc: Northern California
Re: Work Smoother infill Build begins - need advice! new [Re: Craig D]
      #6474031 - 08/19/13 11:26 AM


As to your infill question. As I consider fitting the infill, it occurs to me that we need to consider wood movement. For example, would a very tight (precise) fitting infill be a problem with wood expansion possibly cracking the casting. With that in mind, I was considering a less precise infill fitting with some semi-flexible glue or filling (like epoxy or liquid nails) to allow for wood movement. The filling is not the point but the concern for wood movement and cracking. I’m sure the originators of this type of plane did not have flexible glues. Would a looser fit be better? Or, possibly, shaping the infill in a way to allow for movement and still fit snugly?

As to the lever cap pivot. We have used 3/16 brass rod, full cross width, bent slightly to stay in position in the lever cap. We have also threaded the lever cap and used “shoulder” screws to ride in matching holes in the brass casting. Both seem to work equally well and both allow for removal of the lever cap for repair, refitting or adjustment.

Thanks for starting this post.


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KlausK.
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Registered: 05/06/09
Posts: 1132
Loc: Stuttgart, Germany
Re: Work Smoother infill Build begins - need advice! new [Re: DallasStarter]
      #6474126 - 08/19/13 12:17 PM

The begin looks good...
The enterprise is ambitious though. An overstuffed infill plane is tricky to make. Your's is even more difficult since the plane body is closed at the front and at the rear and because that all isn't difficult enough, the body is coffin shaped additionally. I don't think that more hurdles are possible.

If I had to attack this task, I'd go with a fake out of cheap wood just to find out, where the main issues will be. It might be a good idea to make precise patterns of the bottom area of the body and of the sidelines as well.

I'm really curious about the progress, it will be more than interesting to follow this thread.

Good Luck
Klaus

--------------------
Two Lawyers Toolworks - Klaus & Pedder are making saws


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Skogs
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Registered: 12/13/00
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Loc: Moorhead, Mn, U.S.A.
Re: Work Smoother infill Build begins - need advice! new [Re: KlausK.]
      #6474200 - 08/19/13 12:57 PM

That scares me a little Klaus as I had planned a similar plan. Watching intently.

Skogs


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Phil S.
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Registered: 04/24/12
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Loc: 58.4° N 134.5° W
Re: Work Smoother infill Build begins - need advice! new [Re: KlausK.]
      #6474711 - 08/19/13 08:07 PM

Ya - Klaus, you just frightened a bunch of us infill neophytes. The link that Derek provided here provides a bit of help, but unfortunately omits the very part of concern, fitting the infill, due to a technical snafu. He does, however, mention the use of templates which was a very worthwhile tip.

Phil


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Martin S.
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Re: Work Smoother infill Build begins - need advice! new [Re: Phil S.]
      #6474715 - 08/19/13 08:12 PM

OK, I've got one of these, and I have no clue what I may have gotten myself into.

Dumb question, don't laugh.

Would it somehow be helpful to use playdough or modeling clay to fill the "mold" and then use that as a reference for how big to make the wood?

If I am completely out in left field, don't make too much fun of me.

--------------------
...Naval Aviators, that had balz made of brass and the size of bowling balls, getting shot off the deck at night, in heavy seas, hoping that when they leave the deck that the ship is pointed towards the sky and not the water.

AD1 T. O. Cronkhite


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Phil S.
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Re: Work Smoother infill Build begins - need advice! new [Re: Martin S.]
      #6474728 - 08/19/13 08:28 PM

Martin-

There are a bunch of us in the boat with you. My rough game plan at the moment is to use a piece of scrap and fit it as part of the learning curve. I have a nice chunk of ebony that I don't want to use to find my mistakes. My current thought is to carve templates of thin wood to get an idea of the internal shape, transfer those to a block of poplar or some such, carve that to close to final shape and then using some type of marking fluid (oil paint maybe, soot?) on the interior of the cast fit in the infill, pull it out to see where it is rubbing and pare off a bit more until I have good contact all around. Still subject to revision though as I get smarter about this.

I'm still in the information collection phase and don't plan to rush into this. I have lots of planes so I don't have to have this done tomorrow. Slow and easy will win the race. I doubt it will look like a Spiers, but I think I can be patient enough so the end product will please me. James said he was going to post a build along, but with a new wife, new house and the middle of the summer, it might not show up until next winter which will be right on schedule for me.

Phil


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DallasStarter
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Registered: 02/07/08
Posts: 1940
Loc: Dallas, TX
Re: Work Smoother infill Build begins - need advice! new [Re: Phil S.]
      #6474814 - 08/19/13 09:42 PM

Hey guys-

On the critical task of fitting the infills. . . I've been turning this around in my head the last couple of days, working out an order of operations to necessary points of reference are maintained as long as possible. I'm currently writing out a procedure that I plan to follow. It is tedious, but most steps must be done in order so that guessing is never necessary. We'll see if it works. I'll post here once I finish it so that people can critique it. Then I'll try to photograph each step as I'm doing them so there's picture to help the words make sense.

As for the earlier posed questions, I thought about precision shoulder screws, but then the screws would pivot in the casting with the lever cap. Probably not a big deal but you'll notice that on Konrad's plane the pivot is milled flush to the casting, which suggests to me that the pivot itself is frozen to the casting, meaning the lever cap must be drilled through and through? Maybe Joel or Len will happen along with some perspective from vintage infill construction (hope, hope).

Anyway, I'll post the procedure I plan to use soon.

Reed

--------------------
You don't need a parachute to go skydiving unless you want to do it more than once. . .


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Happy Birthday Gregory of Sherwood Forest
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Loc: Fallen UP the stairs 4/2013
Re: Work Smoother infill Build begins - need advice! new [Re: Martin S.]
      #6474818 - 08/19/13 09:45 PM

Martin S. said:

Dumb question, don't laugh.

Would it somehow be helpful to use playdough or modeling clay to fill the "mold" and then use that as a reference for how big to make the wood?




Wow, I think that may be a better idea than what I thought of...

I was going to line the inside with wax paper and spray Great Stuff expanding foam into it to get a form.

And I have no excuse for not thinking of the playdoh, after all, I have 2 kids who play with the stuff regularly.
<--Me.

.

--------------------
" The founding fathers weren't trying to protect citizens' rights to have an interesting hobby." I Learn Each Day 1/18/13

www.RUSTHUNTER.com


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KlausK.
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Registered: 05/06/09
Posts: 1132
Loc: Stuttgart, Germany
Re: Work Smoother infill Build begins - need advice! new [Re: Phil S.]
      #6474833 - 08/19/13 09:59 PM

Sorry Skogs abd Phil. Rereading my post it sounds disencouraging. That wasn't my intention. I just wanted to point out, that it might be a good idea to make a set of cheap infills just to learn how the tricky things can be done.

This tool build is a challenge but it's one that can be mastered. I think my first step would be the making of patterns of the inside bottom and the sides. The next step would be an oversized infill blank large enough to cover the overstuffed parts. With the patterns it should be possible to mark the areas of the infill that have to sit later on in the body (bottom and sides). Make sure that the infills are long enough that the bed of the rear infill and the flat inside part of the front infill can be properly sculpted later on. Normally it would be the better way to start with the blade bed and to shape the rest of the infill after that. But since the body of your planes is closed, I don't think that this is possible, at least I've no idea how it could be done this way.

When the infills will sit properly in the body, the fun part of shaping them begins. And: if there are little imperfections with the sit in the body, there's nothing wrong to fill a small gap with a piece of veneer or so to make the infill to sit tight. Nobody will spot that after the infill is fixed.

The more I think about the making of such an infill, the more I'm intrigued with the idea to do it. I've a very similarly shaped cast body from a vintage infill plane laying around that waits to become a usable plane again....

Good luck on this interesting tool build.
Klaus

--------------------
Two Lawyers Toolworks - Klaus & Pedder are making saws


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Craig D
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Registered: 06/04/09
Posts: 381
Loc: Oregon USA
Re: Work Smoother infill Build begins - need advice! new [Re: DallasStarter]
      #6474836 - 08/19/13 10:01 PM

This blog post by Raney Nelson of DAED ToolWorks might be of interest as it describes his methods for fitting overstuffed infills:
Shaping wood

--------------------
Craig D Does sawing logs count as woodwork? My blog


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Craig D
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Posts: 381
Loc: Oregon USA
Re: Work Smoother infill Build begins - need advice! new [Re: DallasStarter]
      #6474846 - 08/19/13 10:17 PM

So many ways to attach the cap: screws, pegs on springs (in the cap; push in to install the cap, pegs pop out to fit into holes in the plane body), through axle, through axle/pegs attached to the sides of the body and notches in the cap that engage the pegs (the cap is removable, a method used by Holtey, Marcou and the Stanley scrubs). Here a couple pics of methods I've used:




--------------------
Craig D Does sawing logs count as woodwork? My blog


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DallasStarter
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Posts: 1940
Loc: Dallas, TX
Re: Work Smoother infill Build begins - need advice! new [Re: Craig D]
      #6474849 - 08/19/13 10:23 PM

Craig D said:


This blog post by Raney Nelson of DAED ToolWorks might be of interest as it describes his methods for fitting overstuffed infills:
Shaping wood




Excellent link Craig thanks! Don't know how I missed that, as I've been reading Raney's blog for quite a while now. The dry erase marker method for finding high spots is worth a shot, but I fear it may not work as well with the rough inside casting as it does on his smooth walls. Also, it looks from this picture like he establish high shoulders on the blank first and then removes material from the bottom to bring the overstuff ledge down to the top of sides. I wonder how he does that reliably on such small pieces?


Anyway, here's the procedure I'm planning on using. Forgive the typos, it's first draft. And if you see a fatal flaw (other than naïve optimism that it might work) let me know!

Fitting overstuffed infills on Work Smoother. WARNING - this procedure is entirely THEORETICAL and UNPROVEN and will serve as a guide for first effort infill fitting. Only once proven will the final infill material be used.


Establishing rear infill dimension bed location
- Machine test block 2"x5"x2" 6-sqare. Block must be longer than distance from rear of casting to throat opening
- Cut tall rabbet at 1/4" above height and exact thickness of rear casting (table saw or router table).
- Set marking guage to height of rear wall from top to inside bottom. Transfer this dimension to rear of block
- Relieve bottom corner and taper as needed to allow it to seat (though it will not yet because of rear throat bedding)
- Set marking guage to height of rear wall from top to inside bottom. Transfer this dimension to rear of blank. Set guage aside retaining measurement.
- Machine spacer equivalent to height of rear throat bedding
- place block in casting on space and read bedding and tight to back. Lightly scribe through mouth against bed angle to establish back of mouth.
- measure width of rear bedding to establish est. starting point for machining rear bedding rabbet measuring back from scribe.
- Cut rabbet into front bottom of block (router table) until fit to determine rabbet dimensions for actual infill
- Re-scribe again through mouth determine back of mouth.
- Cut at bed angle leaving scribe line plus 1/64" to ensure mouth is tight at front (can be filed if necessary to open up the throat) (table saw).
- Determine fit of blade in mouth given bed position. It should just barely make it through or touch at the bottom-most point of the sole. If not, re-cut bed at moderate speed to avoid blade deflection (table saw).
- Check fit of blade until satisfactory such that the mouth is tight when the rear rabbet is tight to the back of the plane. Scribe position of rear wall to test block


Creating rear side patterns
- find a suitable pattern material (should be thick enough to take a knife line (and not compress under pressure like cardboard) but not more than saw 1/16 thick at the most or the transfer will be inaccurate from the concave oriented creation to the convex oriented transfer.
- We begin with the rear pattern
- cut rear end square
- measure forward to just past front of mouth on inside of casting. Note, you'll need more than a straighline's distance because of the flex. Also, we're measuring from the inside of the casting and not the back because we will reference this template off the rabbet on the infill and not off it's absolute back. This is so we don't have to cut a rabbet in the pattern. We will need to relieve the back slightly at the bottom to allow it to seat tightly to the back of the casting.
- cut a rabbet in the front of the pattern to match the rear mouth bedding It doesn't need to be perfect in length or height, just long and high enough to clear while leaving as much unrabbeted reference edge at the bottom as possible.
- use small thin scraps of appropriate length to wedge pattern against side along it's length. Use a knife to scribe the side profile, angling the knife or keeping perfectly perpendicular to ensure the smallest pattern possible. Failure yielding an oversided pattern will produce gaps in the overstuff to bronze transition, while slight angling will allow room for some paring.
-Carefully cut to knife line. Final length is not relevant as this pattern will only mark out up to the bed. Mark for side.
-Repeat for opposite side (do not count on the sides being the same) and mark for side.


Fitting actual rear infill
- Machine 6-square to following dimensions: sole width plus 1/4" x finished infill height x previously established blank length plus 1/4".
- Cut rear-of-mouth rabbet in bottom front of blank to same dimensions as test block (router table)
- Cut bed agle into block leaving sharp edge but no more (table saw)
- Re-check rabbet dimensions from test block and move is back if needed
- Measuring from back of rabbet, mark out distance to back of infill by measruing to the back of the test block past the rabbet. This will require hold a straight-edge or reference block to the back fof the test block and then measurig to the inside face this creates We can't measure to the bottom inside of the rear rabbet because it will have been releived and taperd to fit the casting, preventing an accurate position.
- Cut off rear excess to line (table saw) Note: we will cut the rabbet later
- DS tape casting to 1/4-thick BB ply cut almost to size and trim with flush-trim bit (router table).
- DS tape rear infil blank to sole pattern referencing rear of blank with rear of pattern
- Invert and remove most of waste (bandsaw)
- Flush trim to pattern using multiple passes with patten bit removing patter as needed. Invert and finish with flush-trimming bit (router table).
- Set up straight-cutting bit in router table, set bit height to rear wall height from retained marking guage. Set fence to remove very little material. Ensure fence is zero-clearance, especially at top. Cut establishing rabbet in back only. Re-set fence to full wall thickness (using test cuts in scrap) and complete rear rabbet. Do no change fence setting.
- referencing off of top of rabbet (where not relieved or tapered) and bottom of blank, place side pattern on contoured blank side and transfer overstuff shoulder lines lightly but clearly with knife.
- Shim router table fence with 1/16" shim above bit to cut establishing rabbet on sides
- Remove shim and relieve rest of material for rabbet around plane sides.
- Adjust bit height and carefully remove material as possible to get closer to shoulder lines.
- Using chisels (and gouges for curves), extend rabbet to shoulder lines.
- Test fit
- Remove material from corners and taper as needed using shoulder planes, rasps, floats, etc.
- Shape above shoulder lines as desired.


Front infill side pattern
- cut front end square
- measure back from inside of front to just path mouth
- cut rabbet in bottom to allow relief for rear mouth bed
- relieve bottom corner to allow it to seat tightly to front corner
- wedge into position as before and use knife to scribe profile
- carefully trim to line
- mark for side and repeat


Front infill creation
- using a test block equal in height to the front wall and in length to the distance from the inside front of the casting to halfway into the mouth (it will need to be relieved on it's bottom front edge to allow it to seat), scribe the distance to the front of the mouth from the bottom of the plan through the mouth, angling to ensure the shortest distance. Carry this line around to the side of the block and up. Distance (f) to be used later will be the distance from the unrelieved portion of the front to the scribe line on the side.
- 6 square stock to slightly width just slightly over casting sole width at front of mouth, exact height, and 5 inches long (yes, 5 inches)
- Using a cutting gauge mark out the centerline on the bottom and rear only
- sample front wall height in three places, set marking gauge to shortest of the three sampled heights
- mark front wall shoulder
- cut rabbet for front wall to full depth and height
- transfer centerline up the first 1/2" of front inside rabbet
- Mark out bottom length per test block distance (f), referencing from inside of rabbet at bottom.
- Transfer mark to reference side (just at bottom) and then lay out forward bevel along reference side. Square top of bevel across top of blank.
- DS tape pattern to blank, referencing off of front edge ghosted down from top using square reference block and centered
- Flush blank to sides where needed
- Carry cut line up sides
- reference front side infill pattern off bottom of blank and top (unrelieved) front rabbet and transfer with knife as before to establish shoulder lines, Repeat on other side.
- Rabbet on router table as per rear blank to just below shoulder line. Do not carry rabbet more than slightly past cut line on bottom as we will be laying it on it's side to cut the front infill free.
- Pare to shoulder lines
- if adequate straight reference face on side, turn blank on side and using miter gauge set to desired angle and set up with sacrificial zero-clearance fence pre-cut to show kerf position, cut front infill free
- if there is not adequate straight reference face on side to reference off of table saw surface, mill a piece of wood 6-square, wider than the blank thickness and longer than blank. Using cutting gauge, mark in center line along length, referencing from good edge. Square a knife line across width at approximate position of cut line with blank placed on board. DS tape blank to wood, lining up center marks on blank and wood as well as cut lines. Carry cut line over edge of board using bevel guage set to desired angle. Using board as reference, against table and fence cut front infill free as above
- Test fit
- Remove material from corners and taper as needed using shoulder planes, rasps, floats, etc.
- Wood should come right to edge of mouth. If not, do not file mouth open to meet it except if possible on the top only (leaving the mouth dimension at the bottom the same).
- Shape above shoulder lines as desired.

--------------------
You don't need a parachute to go skydiving unless you want to do it more than once. . .


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Phil S.
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Registered: 04/24/12
Posts: 1040
Loc: 58.4° N 134.5° W
Re: Work Smoother infill Build begins - need advice! new [Re: Craig D]
      #6474851 - 08/19/13 10:27 PM

Craig D said:


This blog post by Raney Nelson of DAED ToolWorks might be of interest as it describes his methods for fitting overstuffed infills:
Shaping wood




A quote from that blog -"These are the front and rear totes for a coffin smoother – the fitting of which is one of the most challenging things I’ve found in planemaking." Oh, boy!


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JesseM
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Re: Work Smoother infill Build begins - need advice! new [Re: DallasStarter]
      #6474871 - 08/19/13 10:51 PM

How are you planning are fixing the infill to the body? I have seen both screws and pins used. Or is it just epoxied in place. I have no problem peining some pins in place, but not sure if I have to. Inquiring minds would like to know

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Craig D
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Re: Work Smoother infill Build begins - need advice! new [Re: JesseM]
      #6474890 - 08/20/13 12:21 AM

How are you planning are fixing the infill to the body? ... just epoxied in place.
Something I've wondered about with epoxy: I've used it, and liquid hide glue, and haven't had any issues but have read that some people have had repeated instances of epoxied infills popping loose. I suspect heat as epoxies (at least the one I use) undo around 150°-200F and a metal plane sole can get hot enough to melt wax. Maybe something like JBWeld might be the ticket.

--------------------
Craig D Does sawing logs count as woodwork? My blog


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Craig D
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Re: Work Smoother infill Build begins - need advice! new [Re: DallasStarter]
      #6474892 - 08/20/13 12:45 AM

I admire your ability to think things through and plan (honest) but, for me, that would be too much thinking (and this coming from programmer). Also, the open ends of Konrad's and Raney's planes, I think, make things a bit easier as you can slide the infill out the end as you fit it, then trim it.

Me, I'd make a simplifying assumption - over-stuffing means you don't really care how well the infill fits as long as things are tight where you can see them (I seem to remember seeing some Norris & Spiers that were pretty sloppy where you couldn't see them). So I would make the infill a loose fit (when it is in the body & slide towards the iron) and cut the lip high. Slide back & scribe the the side wall, fit, chop the bottom, repeat until the fit is good. Then cut the ramp and shape. If the fit is looser than you like, shim or pot in epoxy.

Oh yeah - regarding wood movement/shrinkage. It happens. No matter what (unless infused with plastic?). To prevent this from moving the sidewalls, you can put a tube/rod through the infill and attach the sidewall to the rod, not the wood, and let the wood do its thing (see Brese, Holtey). Another reason for a loose fitting infill.

--------------------
Craig D Does sawing logs count as woodwork? My blog


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DallasStarter
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Re: Work Smoother infill Build begins - need advice! new [Re: Craig D]
      #6475776 - 08/20/13 06:59 PM

Craig D said:


I admire your ability to think things through and plan (honest) but, for me, that would be too much thinking (and this coming from programmer).




Ha! Agreed! But honestly the intention of the fore-planning was to prevent thinking during the build. All too often I'll depend on my ability to adjust on the fly, and while that sometimes and even often times works fine for building furniture, I knew that it would be death for trying to do an overstuffed infill. And while I can definitely envision how much easier it would be to do a non-overstuffed version, even with a handle, I can't stop myself from thinking, "why not at least try?" (Even if the answer is - I'll probably fail).
We see I guess! But the intention is to seat the infill well while also shooting for tight transitions. I'm interested in function first and appearance second, and prioritizing tight transitions means leaving the infill unsupported except at the shoulders of the overstuff. So for me, that won't be the priority - the stability of the bed will.

I am strongly considering borrowing Holtey's top-channel level cap concept though. Seems ideal is multiple ways, not the least of which being it would be possibly to adjust the meeting of the lever cap to the blade at the pivot, instead of at the point of contact with the blade. Not to mention you're not tasked with drilling a perfect though hole, something I wouldn't trust my drill press to do to this level of accuracy.

As for securing the infills to the casting. . . I was thinking epoxy. But I guess I could envision bronze screws piened and filed in effort to make them invisible. But could I match the color of the bronze in the casting? I'd be concerned about a but of different colored spots winking at me for the next 40 years. . .

--------------------
You don't need a parachute to go skydiving unless you want to do it more than once. . .


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Craig D
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Re: Work Smoother infill Build begins - need advice! new [Re: DallasStarter]
      #6475820 - 08/20/13 07:58 PM

I am strongly considering borrowing Holtey's top-channel level cap concept though
I've made one and it works well but have serious problems coming up with a cap design I like. But I like pegs with matching cut outs in the cap, just don't want to machine them.

I'd be concerned about a but of different colored spots winking at me
I'm thinking it is very hard to get a lasting color match - I've seen them on all levels of planes. You need identical alloys, perfect piening (adhesives/brazing leave visible lines) and no oxidation. I've only done one plane where you can't see the pins (after four years) and that was stainless steel with stainless pins (well you can find one of the four if you know where to look).
Make it a feature!

--------------------
Craig D Does sawing logs count as woodwork? My blog


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JesseM
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Re: Work Smoother infill Build begins - need advice! new [Re: Craig D]
      #6475894 - 08/20/13 09:45 PM

Thats good to hear. I was hunting for some manganese bronze rods today and didn't find anything. I'd definitely be happy skipping that step and focus on all the other steps

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Phil S.
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Re: Work Smoother infill Build begins - need advice! new [Re: JesseM]
      #6475906 - 08/20/13 10:02 PM

Jamestown Distributors have silicon bronze rod down to a 1/4". Not sure how much difference there is between SB and Mang. bronze.

Phil


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DallasStarter
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Re: Work Smoother infill Build begins - need advice! new [Re: DallasStarter]
      #6497639 - 09/09/13 09:10 PM

Well, I have a few hours in the shop and was able to make some progress on a trial fitting using the procedure I outline earlier. Here's a few pics:

After completing the test block used to determine the measurements for the placement of the mouth, I laminated some cherry and machined it into a billet. Bed was cut into that while still square and then it was placed on the sole template for flush trimming. I took readings on smallest wall thickness at seven places along the rear infill's area and determined the best thickness to shoot for with the rabbet that would not be cut along the bottom. This is cut at the same height as the rear rabbet because that it the lowest part of the casting. Fortunately it provides plenty of bearing surface for continuing the rabbet to the shoulder lines with a chisel and judicious paring. Anyway, here's the blank fresh off the router table's rabbeting procedure (fence set with two test cuts and calipers):



It bears mentioning that by this point I'd already laid in the shoulder lines for the overstuff. This required the creation of side templates. I ended up using a $3 "fire extinguisher here -->" sign from Lowes because it was the perfect mix of flexible but rigid. And because it was thin steel I could file it to close dimension if my cutting with the sheers was not up to snuff. I used layout fluid and a carbide scribe to lay out the pattern, which was wedged up to the side of the casting from the inside for maximum accuracy:


[imagehttp://farm6.staticflickr.com/5457/9715055076_51432a229d_b.jpg[/image]

I transferred the pattern to the blank by clamping a flat reference to the bottom of the blank so I could concentrate on getting the back lined up.



Then set in the line with light touch and marking knife followed by heavier strokes to set it in Then a little chisel work to extend the rabbet to the lines:




At this point we have a very tight friction fit at the front and the back, but material must be removed to accommodate variances in wall thickness and the rough inside corners of the casting. I did this with a combination of shoulder plane, chisel, and file. As you can see, it doesn't take much to get it down in there and eventually nearly seated.




However, I was getting interference that was causing the blank not to seat all the way into the back where it should have. You can see the small difference in this picture of the mating of the back

(note, you can see here what happens to a corner when you screw up at the demon router table!)

After trying removing wood from a number of possible places, I finally figured out that it was the lateral rear corners that were preventing full seating. This is because the wall thickness changes considerably in this corner and I did not notice it when taking my readings. Two chisel cuts and we were home, but the next difficulty was revealed:



As you can see, the meeting of the infill with the shoulders leaves much to be desired. After some examination, I believe I have pinpointed the root cause. Because the inside corners are rough, the patterns sit more on the roughness (think: cove) than all the way down at the lowest point as would be allowed were the casting to have clean and square inside corners. By messing with the location of the pattern, the template, when scribed to the blank, yields a gap equivalent to the offset created by the roughness of the inside corner. The larger offset closer to the ramp may be worsened by something else so I will have to continue to investigate.

I believe there are two ways to counter this. One would be to make up for the offset by shimming out the blank (but not the pattern) from the reference during transfer. A 16th would probably do it, allowing the shoulders to be scribed "too low" which is in fact right where we want them since the pattern couldn't seat in the casting perfectly to begin with. The other option (which I would have if I was fitting an actual infill and not this trial piece) would be to plane 1/16" off the bottom of the infill to effectively bring the shoulders down. This would actually be reasonably easy, as one could use a marking gauge to indicate the amount needing removal and simply plane to the line as one would when bringing a board to final thickness.

Unfortunately, we're getting close to a deal on the house, so I may soon have to pack up my shop for storage until perhaps February. To be continued!

Reed

--------------------
You don't need a parachute to go skydiving unless you want to do it more than once. . .


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hbmcc
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Re: Work Smoother infill Build begins - need advice! new [Re: DallasStarter]
      #6497714 - 09/09/13 10:47 PM

This is looking great, Reed. Thanks for the update.

And, have a good move!

--------------------
Bruce
There is ... a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss. --Douglas Adams (Woodworking should be as easy.)


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swagman
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Re: Work Smoother infill Build begins - need advice! new [Re: KlausK.]
      #6497760 - 09/10/13 01:30 AM

KlausK. said:


The begin looks good...
The enterprise is ambitious though. An overstuffed infill plane is tricky to make. Your's is even more difficult since the plane body is closed at the front and at the rear and because that all isn't difficult enough, the body is coffin shaped additionally. I don't think that more hurdles are possible.

If I had to attack this task, I'd go with a fake out of cheap wood just to find out, where the main issues will be. It might be a good idea to make precise patterns of the bottom area of the body and of the sidelines as well.

I'm really curious about the progress, it will be more than interesting to follow this thread.

Good Luck
Klaus




Hi Klaus. Just a thought bubble .Could Plaster of Paris be used to form a 3d shape to the inside of the metal body. This mould could then be sliced into shapes and used as templates for the wooden infills.

The height of the mould could be increased if required by using a thin mdf or similar, adhered to the outer casting with double sided carpet tape.

Stewie;


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barryvabeach
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Re: Work Smoother infill Build begins - need advice! new [Re: swagman]
      #6497817 - 09/10/13 06:47 AM

Reed, very nice work. I made a smoother from St. James Bay Tool Co years ago and spent a lot of time trying to get that overstuffed line to match up with the shoulder of the plane, and at the same time, get the bottom of the blank to rest on the sole of the plane body. Just like you did, it was a lot of pare a little, fit, repeat. I can't offer much in the way of advice, but did want to point out that when you look at old infills, while many have overstuffed infills, some don't, and you can understand why they removed that feature because it certainly changes the amount of time needed to finish construction. These are both Spiers planes

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Derek Cohen
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Re: Work Smoother infill Build begins - need advice! new [Re: DallasStarter]
      #6497819 - 09/10/13 06:52 AM

Hi Reed

To fit the infill nice and tightly, use a magic marker or, better, the end of a scraper blade, to scribe along the top edge of the infill. Use a chisel to pare this away. Fit the infill again, and be prepared to do this again until the infill is tight to the top. You will likely need to remove a similar amount from the bsole of the infill.

Regards from Perth

Derek

--------------------
Articles on furniture building, shop made tools and tool reviews at www.inthewoodshop.com


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Timberwolf
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Re: Work Smoother infill Build begins - need advice! new [Re: Martin S.]
      #6497929 - 09/10/13 08:35 AM

Quote:

Would it somehow be helpful to use playdough or modeling clay to fill the "mold" and then use that as a reference for how big to make the wood?




That is exactly what I was thinks as well, Martin....That would provide the shape and all the measurements needed...

--------------------
"The safest place in Korea was right behind a platoon of Marine riflemen. Lord, how those boys could fight!"
MGen. Frank E. Lowe, U.S. Army; Korea, 26 January 1952 {in a report to President Truman} .

Jack Edgar USMC.. Korea '51/'52







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Derek Cohen
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Re: Work Smoother infill Build begins - need advice! new [Re: Timberwolf]
      #6497959 - 09/10/13 09:02 AM

Timberwolf said:


Quote:

Would it somehow be helpful to use playdough or modeling clay to fill the "mold" and then use that as a reference for how big to make the wood?




That is exactly what I was thinks as well, Martin....That would provide the shape and all the measurements needed...




That will not work - how will you transfer the marks to the real wood? They will be back-to-front.

Make paper templates ...





Regards from Perth

Derek

--------------------
Articles on furniture building, shop made tools and tool reviews at www.inthewoodshop.com


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wayne anderson
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Re: Work Smoother infill Build begins - need advice! new [Re: KlausK.]
      #6497971 - 09/10/13 09:10 AM

KlausK. said:


The begin looks good...
The enterprise is ambitious though. An overstuffed infill plane is tricky to make. Your's is even more difficult since the plane body is closed at the front and at the rear and because that all isn't difficult enough, the body is coffin shaped additionally. I don't think that more hurdles are possible.

If I had to attack this task, I'd go with a fake out of cheap wood just to find out, where the main issues will be. It might be a good idea to make precise patterns of the bottom area of the body and of the sidelines as well.

I'm really curious about the progress, it will be more than interesting to follow this thread.

Good Luck
Klaus




I agree with all Klaus says here. It will be interesting. -w

--------------------
Wayne
http://andersonplanes.com


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LENPAM
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Re: Work Smoother infill Build begins - need advice! new [Re: wayne anderson]
      #6498561 - 09/10/13 06:03 PM

Assuming your ifill to this point is equal in all dimensions templets really are the way to go.they allow you to actually lay them on the wood and center all the dimensions so you remove only the amount necessary. When you get close like this it becomes a rasp and filing operation which while time consuming is much better for a perfect fit. Spend the time to go slowly taking a little from each side or edge or whatever needs tweeking till it fits snugly on both sides. Time and patience are your best friend at the last fitting stages. Len

--------------------
INFILL MAGNET


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Timberwolf
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Re: Work Smoother infill Build begins - need advice! new [Re: Derek Cohen]
      #6498647 - 09/10/13 07:53 PM

Quote:

how will you transfer the marks to the real wood?




Measure the mold and transfer the data to the wood.

--------------------
"The safest place in Korea was right behind a platoon of Marine riflemen. Lord, how those boys could fight!"
MGen. Frank E. Lowe, U.S. Army; Korea, 26 January 1952 {in a report to President Truman} .

Jack Edgar USMC.. Korea '51/'52







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Derek Cohen
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Re: Work Smoother infill Build begins - need advice! new [Re: Timberwolf]
      #6498833 - 09/11/13 12:48 AM

Timberwolf said:


Quote:

how will you transfer the marks to the real wood?




Measure the mold and transfer the data to the wood.




Hi Jack

You know that will not be accurate as the outline is irregular.

You want to be able to trace directly, and cut to that mark.

Regards from Perth

--------------------
Articles on furniture building, shop made tools and tool reviews at www.inthewoodshop.com


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Todd O. Cronkhite
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Re: Work Smoother infill Build begins - need advice! new [Re: DallasStarter]
      #6499635 - 09/11/13 02:54 PM

My advice is to sell off this---and buy a Woodie Smoother.

--------------------
You wouldn't say that if a juju man had messed with your mojo. Kizar 7-19-13

havent you learned anything in the last month? Just shoot him from the truck and call it a day Fear Monger 7-19-13



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Blacky's BoyModerator
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Re: Work Smoother infill Build begins - need advice! new [Re: Todd O. Cronkhite]
      #6499857 - 09/11/13 05:08 PM

Todd O. Cronkhite said:


My advice is to sell off this---and buy a Woodie Smoother.






--------------------
See ya around,
Dominic
------------------------------
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak


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DallasStarter
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Re: Work Smoother infill Build begins - need advice! new [Re: Todd O. Cronkhite]
      #6499925 - 09/11/13 06:05 PM

Todd O. Cronkhite said:


My advice is to sell off this---and buy a Woodie Smoother.




wonderful advice. . .

--------------------
You don't need a parachute to go skydiving unless you want to do it more than once. . .


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Unit5
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Re: Work Smoother infill Build begins - need advice! new [Re: DallasStarter]
      #6504705 - 09/16/13 03:56 PM

Stay in there, I just finished up mine and it is a dream to use.

http://unit5.tumblr.com/post/61302297064/sturnella-toolworks-smoother

And more photos

http://unit5.tumblr.com/post/61302513705

Edited by Unit5 (09/16/13 04:03 PM)


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hbmcc
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Re: Work Smoother infill Build begins - need advice! new [Re: Unit5]
      #6505064 - 09/17/13 12:12 AM

That was fast! And very pretty.

You have a drawing on your Tumbler. Where did you get it?

Thanks....

--------------------
Bruce
There is ... a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss. --Douglas Adams (Woodworking should be as easy.)


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J. Conrad
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Re: Work Smoother infill Build begins - need advice! new [Re: hbmcc]
      #6541065 - 10/21/13 01:23 PM

Hi fellas,

If you haven't caught it, (like I missed this ENTIRE thread) check out the build-along on the Sturnella blog:

http://sturnella.com/blog/

I'm trying to cover (almost) all of the bases!

--------------------
James Uhrich

Sturnella Toolworks

info@sturnella.com


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Martin S.
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Re: Work Smoother infill Build begins - need advice! new [Re: J. Conrad]
      #6850059 - 10/08/14 07:48 PM

Bump

--------------------
...Naval Aviators, that had balz made of brass and the size of bowling balls, getting shot off the deck at night, in heavy seas, hoping that when they leave the deck that the ship is pointed towards the sky and not the water.

AD1 T. O. Cronkhite


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