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GeorgeV
Member

Registered: 11/28/09
Posts: 757
Loc: Bowie, Maryland
Sharpening Stones?
      #6650307 - 01/31/14 11:02 AM

I have been using sand paper of varying grits to sharpen my chisels and planes and have decided to change my habits and use sharpening stones.

I thought that I had narrowed my choice to Norton waterstones 1000, 4000 and 8000 or even a 1000/4000 combination stone.

But considering that waterstones need to be flattened, I am also considering the DMT Dia-sharp stones 1000, 4000, 8000.

I am sure that many Woodnet members have a preference and would like to hear opinions. I really am not interested in Arkansas stones or Japenese stones.

--------------------
if it ain't broke, you're not tryin'
Quando omni flunkus, moritati.
Red Green



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BlueMaxx
Honored Veteran, and oddly stuck looking for a snazzy title

Registered: 05/03/07
Posts: 23986
Loc: Der Rathskeller
Re: Sharpening Stones? new [Re: GeorgeV]
      #6650313 - 01/31/14 11:12 AM

I really am not interested in Arkansas stones or Japenese stones.




--------------------





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jgourlay
Just Promoted to troublemaker

Registered: 12/06/02
Posts: 10572
Loc: Houston, Texas
Re: Sharpening Stones? new [Re: GeorgeV]
      #6650357 - 01/31/14 11:52 AM

Prior to discovering the overwhelming wonderfullness of Natural Japanese Waterstones (whichyer not interested in), I very successfully and satisfactorily used:


Touch up on grinder if necessary to refresh hollow grind followed by
140gr Atoma diamond plate followed by
DMT Red followed by
DMT Green on very hard steels OR
Directly to Shapton red followed by
Shapton Melon (8k) SOMETIMES followed
.25um diamond film (tools for working wood) when planing gnarly exotics.

Sounds like a lot. If my time at the grinder was accurate, the rest takes a minute or two (flat).

I freehand everything now except for a very few plane blades. It was a lot slower back when everything was sharpening jiggery.

--------------------
MAKE: Void your warranty, violate a user agreement, fry a circuit, blow a fuse, poke an eye out... www.makezine.com

No Good Deed Goes Unpunished



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GeorgeV
Member

Registered: 11/28/09
Posts: 757
Loc: Bowie, Maryland
Re: Sharpening Stones? new [Re: jgourlay]
      #6650440 - 01/31/14 01:03 PM

Please let me clarify my choice of stones and my preference. I have used Arkansas stones to sharpen my hunting knives and found them not to my liking even though they produced a keen edge. I also want to avoid using oil in the honing process. As far as the Japanese stones are concerned, I have not heard good things about King waterstones.

I was particularly interested in Norton waterstones and hoped to get feedback on those stones in particular from users on this forum.

I know that there are many who prefer other media for sharpening and I certainly respect their choice.

--------------------
if it ain't broke, you're not tryin'
Quando omni flunkus, moritati.
Red Green



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Herebrooks
Member

Registered: 03/01/10
Posts: 399
Loc: Fairview, NC
Re: Sharpening Stones? new [Re: GeorgeV]
      #6650452 - 01/31/14 01:17 PM

Shapton Glass stones are very nice. 1000 and 8000 should do the trick. DMT duo sharp(course on one side,fine on the other)will keep your stones flat. You'll need the base for the duo sharp, but a 15.00 japanese base for the shaptons works fine. You don't need to soak the glass stones.
Bill


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jgourlay
Just Promoted to troublemaker

Registered: 12/06/02
Posts: 10572
Loc: Houston, Texas
Re: Sharpening Stones? new [Re: GeorgeV]
      #6650457 - 01/31/14 01:26 PM

GeorgeV said:


As far as the Japanese stones are concerned, I have not heard good things about King waterstones.




I completely concur on your concern with oil, and that is the primary reason I don't use my oilstones in the shop.

"Japanese Stones" is a very wide description encompassing a vast array of qualities. "King" is a tiny little brand. You have basically said "I am not interested in motorized transport because I don't like Mopeds".

Well...what about Frigates, Ferrari's, and F15s?

There are several brands of 'japanese' stones that are highly regarded in the woodworking community: Beston, Shapton, Naniwa all come to mind. The qualities of these three brands cluster them together in a group different from, say, King/Golden Lobster/synthetic aoto.

What did you not like about your arkansas BESIDES the oil? Too hard? Too slow? Too fast? Not enough feedback?

Give us something to work with to help you....

--------------------
MAKE: Void your warranty, violate a user agreement, fry a circuit, blow a fuse, poke an eye out... www.makezine.com

No Good Deed Goes Unpunished



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Axehandle
No bit---short handle

Registered: 09/27/09
Posts: 3431
Loc: Savannah
Re: Sharpening Stones? new [Re: jgourlay]
      #6650458 - 01/31/14 01:29 PM

Might want to consider the steel plate LV sells charged with some of the diamond paste they sell (or TFWW who has .5 and .25 micron)

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jgourlay
Just Promoted to troublemaker

Registered: 12/06/02
Posts: 10572
Loc: Houston, Texas
Re: Sharpening Stones? new [Re: GeorgeV]
      #6650465 - 01/31/14 01:38 PM

GeorgeV said:

I really am not interested in Arkansas stones or Japenese stones.




By the way....the term "japanese stone" and "waterstone" really are synonymous. The 'waterstone' style of synthetic stone was created by the entry of 'japanese waterstones' into the US market.

The 'japanese waterstones' in turn were attempts by the japanese to cheaply replicate in a man made stone the naturally occuring stones mined around Kyoto. Note that 'waterstones' from other parts of the planet are very rare in relation to japanese ones. Not that they don't exist -- Belgian Coticule, Scottish Ragstone, Welsh slate, Charnely Forest, Zulu Grey.

But in the big picture, from a volume perspective, the Japanese Natural Stones are the 800 lb gorilla of natural WATERSTONES. Arkansas novaculite is the 800lb gorilla of natural OILSTONES.

Which is a long long winded way of saying that if your looking at ANY synthetic 'waterstone', you're looking at a "Japanese Stone", even if it's stamped "Hecho en Estados Unidos".

By the way...if you don't like the king waterstones, I doubt you'll like Norton. If you just wannagotrysomething, I would suggest:

1. http://www.amazon.com/DMT-D8F-Dia-Sharp-...+red+benchstone

Followed by

2. http://www.amazon.com/Shapton-5000-Profe...s=shapton+stone


Going from 'crappy edge" to #1 is a big step, and going from #1 to #2 is a big step. But if you like the quality of these two (feedback, speed, hardness) then you can fill in the gaps.

--------------------
MAKE: Void your warranty, violate a user agreement, fry a circuit, blow a fuse, poke an eye out... www.makezine.com

No Good Deed Goes Unpunished



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cputnam
Member

Registered: 01/28/03
Posts: 4642
Loc: Southern California
Re: Sharpening Stones? new [Re: GeorgeV]
      #6650479 - 01/31/14 01:52 PM

I agree that the King brand of stones are not the best.

Stay away from the DMT DUO-sharp stuff. It tends to not be flat or stay that way. Note too, that the 8000 grit stone is not as fine as the waterstone 8K grits.

IMO, an unbeatable combination of performance and price is Stu's Special Set It is what I bought and love. It is, however, Japanese merchandise.

I have a King 1K/4K stone and a Norton 8K stone. Not happy with either - soft and easy to gouge and go out of flat quickly.

Diamonds (loose, paste, films, stones) are good (or so I read). I have a pair of EZE-LAP stones: 400 and 1200 grit. I've probably damaged both by misuse. I still use them for lots of miscellaneous tasks. Options might be a 1K stone followed by a power strop. Many ways to go.

--------------------
Thanks, Curt
-----------------
"Life can only be understood backwards; but it must be lived forwards."
-- Soren Kierkegaard


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BlueMaxx
Honored Veteran, and oddly stuck looking for a snazzy title

Registered: 05/03/07
Posts: 23986
Loc: Der Rathskeller
Re: Sharpening Stones? new [Re: GeorgeV]
      #6650499 - 01/31/14 02:11 PM

Using an oil stone to sharpen a knife is not the same as using a oil stone on a plane or chisel edge



I still do not understand why there is such an aversion to oil stones....

--------------------





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GeorgeV
Member

Registered: 11/28/09
Posts: 757
Loc: Bowie, Maryland
Re: Sharpening Stones? new [Re: BlueMaxx]
      #6650528 - 01/31/14 02:35 PM

Oil is messy and I do not care to use it for sharpening. I have been using water and wet/dry and have been so-so happy with the results. I also tried a DMT fine/extra fine (600/1200) and it really worked no better than the sandpaper. I am not sure if it could be used to flatten the waterstones?

I have been reading Christopher Schwarz "Handplane Essentials" that I received for Christmas and he recommends Norton waterstones 1000, 4000 and 8000, but before making an investment in these stones I really thought that I would check on this forum for another opinion of these particular waterstones to see if others felt the same way about the Norton waterstones.

--------------------
if it ain't broke, you're not tryin'
Quando omni flunkus, moritati.
Red Green



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Tony Z
Something other--as requested

Registered: 03/26/06
Posts: 4567
Loc: DuBois, PA
Re: Sharpening Stones? new [Re: BlueMaxx]
      #6650535 - 01/31/14 02:52 PM

BlueMaxx said:


Using an oil stone to sharpen a knife is not the same as using a oil stone on a plane or chisel edge



I still do not understand why there is such an aversion to oil stones....




I agree. In the years I've used oilstones, I've found them less messy than waterstones. I have a roll of paper towels at hand and simply wipe the chisel, plane blade and stone and I'm back in business (after a few swipes on my strop).

--------------------
Waiting to grow up beyond being just a member


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jgourlay
Just Promoted to troublemaker

Registered: 12/06/02
Posts: 10572
Loc: Houston, Texas
Re: Sharpening Stones? new [Re: cputnam]
      #6650549 - 01/31/14 03:09 PM

cputnam said:


Stay away from the DMT DUO-sharp stuff. It tends to not be flat or stay that way.




That has not been my experience. On my stones, the flat back I get compares exactly to the polishing step on shaptons--and I"m not using the DMT stone to flatten the shaptons. For those, I use the shaptons in a 3 stone rotation.

--------------------
MAKE: Void your warranty, violate a user agreement, fry a circuit, blow a fuse, poke an eye out... www.makezine.com

No Good Deed Goes Unpunished



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Scoony
Honored Veteran

Registered: 01/28/06
Posts: 3753
Loc: Kentucky
Re: Sharpening Stones? new [Re: GeorgeV]
      #6650557 - 01/31/14 03:18 PM

I have the Norton water stone set and find that I can easily get very sharp blades with them. I use a DMT course to flatten them.

Currently I have been using oil stones (Norton med India and hard ark)due to convenience in my set up. If I had a suitable dedicated spot with a sink/water where I could keep the waterstones without fear of freezing, I would probably be using the Nortons waterstones more.


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jgourlay
Just Promoted to troublemaker

Registered: 12/06/02
Posts: 10572
Loc: Houston, Texas
Re: Sharpening Stones? new [Re: GeorgeV]
      #6650561 - 01/31/14 03:20 PM

GeorgeV said:


Oil is messy and I do not care to use it for sharpening.




Before woodnet introduced me to waterstones, I used a very nice set of Arkansas stones.

I could never keep the oil off of stuff. I'd wipe off the tools, and absentmindedly set the rag on the work bench. That tiny bit of oil would make a smear on my work piece. Or I'd get it on my fingers...and on the work piece. And always right before I'd be getting ready to apply finish.

Or I would wipe my tool and fingers, and secure the rag. But rag had oil on it and so even though I wiped my fingers....some get on the work piece. Or I'd get some on my t-shirt, and lean across the bench to reach something, and my tshirt would brush the work piece in between layers of finish.

On and on....I just could never keep the stuff contained adequately. I have the same "problem" with waterstones, but I don't really care because the water has never in 10 years caused any kind of problem.

That, and with oilstones you either go through a forests worth of paper towels or you end up washing your wipe rag all the time. With waterstones, I keep a grody tshirt as the wipe rag and it dries all by itself.

Strangely enough, I have no problem with wooden objects on lathe, and you can't even walk in the same end of the garage as the lathe without coming back more full of oil than Kentucky Fried Chicken.

--------------------
MAKE: Void your warranty, violate a user agreement, fry a circuit, blow a fuse, poke an eye out... www.makezine.com

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Wilbur Pan
Member

Registered: 01/26/07
Posts: 3958
Loc: East Brunswick, NJ
Re: Sharpening Stones? new [Re: GeorgeV]
      #6650584 - 01/31/14 03:45 PM

GeorgeV said:

I have been reading Christopher Schwarz "Handplane Essentials" that I received for Christmas and he recommends Norton waterstones 1000, 4000 and 8000, but before making an investment in these stones I really thought that I would check on this forum for another opinion of these particular waterstones to see if others felt the same way about the Norton waterstones.




Norton waterstones have the same issues as the King waterstones that you alluded to, in that maintaining flatness is more of an issue. Having said that, there are many woodworkers that get excellent results with Norton and King waterstones.

Christopher Schwarz posted a video last year showing his sharpening routine for a chisel. Although he doesn’t say so in the video, the waterstones he’s using are Shapton Professional waterstones, in 1000, 5000, and 8000 grits. I have the same set. I like the Shaptons because they work fast, and are more resistant to dishing than Kings or Nortons.

But the main thing is to practice with whatever sharpening regimen you wind up with. Stick to it, and you’ll have good results.

--------------------
Hail St. Roy, Full of Grace, The Schwarz is with thee.
Blessed art thou among woodworkers, and blessed is the fruit of thy saw, dovetails.
Holy St. Roy, Master of Chisels, pray for us sharpeners now, and at the hour of planing.
Amen.
$300 is a lot of Money!
giant Cypress: Japanese tool blog


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DaveParkis
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Registered: 04/09/09
Posts: 3470
Loc: Colonie, NY
Re: Sharpening Stones? new [Re: GeorgeV]
      #6650655 - 01/31/14 05:23 PM

I tried sand paper for a while, but that got expensive. I bought a set of Norton's (220/1000/4000/8000) and got very good results with them. The problem I bad with them was that I thought they were slow. I then bought the "special" set from Schtoo and they are definitely faster than the Nortons (IMO). Naturally, I bought them when the dollar was very weak, but I would buy them again.

--------------------
Currently a smarta$$ but hoping to one day graduate to wisea$$


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Axehandle
No bit---short handle

Registered: 09/27/09
Posts: 3431
Loc: Savannah
Re: Sharpening Stones? new [Re: DaveParkis]
      #6650658 - 01/31/14 05:29 PM

I just got a Sigma power 10000 to do finishing work with. I would advise against getting Nortons (unless the price is right, see my S&S ad) or Kings and go straight to either Sigma Powers, Besters, Shaptons, or diamonds.

The discontinued Naniwa Super Stones were nice too. tFWW has them on clearance right now.


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Bill Lyman
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Registered: 07/04/06
Posts: 507
Loc: Darien, IL & Fripp Island, SC
Re: Sharpening Stones? new [Re: Wilbur Pan]
      #6650747 - 01/31/14 07:45 PM

Wilbur Pan said:


But the main thing is to practice with whatever sharpening regimen you wind up with. Stick to it, and you’ll have good results.



+1 . I use the Nortons and get good results. Are others faster? I don't know. I have not tried 'em.
Bill Lyman


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Jason28
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Registered: 02/17/04
Posts: 1568
Loc: Doylestown, PA
Re: Sharpening Stones? new [Re: GeorgeV]
      #6650782 - 01/31/14 08:48 PM

GeorgeV said:


I was particularly interested in Norton waterstones and hoped to get feedback on those stones in particular from users on this forum.





I have a pair of Norton combo stones (220/1000 and 4000/8000). The 220 stone wears like a hot knife on butter - it gouges if you look at it sideways. I have to say I've gotten good results with the 1000, 4000 and 8000 stones though the 8000 also gouges very easily. Because I got the stones on a very, very sweet deal I'm still using them.

EDIT: I forgot to mention the Nortons work best with high carbon steel, not so well with modern tool steels. I've used them on vintage plane blades and chisels and they work great. The work on my blue handled Irwin chisels as well. I've had success with them on O1, A2 and PMV-11 though I needed alter my technique (lighter pressure, more attention to even pressure, many more strokes, more water on the 220/1000, less water on the 4000, very little on the 8000, more frequent flattening of the stones). I have a set of Japanese chisels I've yet to sharpen; I don't use them much and they're still as sharp as the day I got them so I don't know how well the Nortons will handle them.

Honest opinion?The Nortons will do the job if you spend some time getting to know them and developing a decent technique. It took me years to get a feel for mine because they frustrated me so much I put them away for months at a time. Now that I've learned their quirks (and mine) I get good results from them. I'm still not fond of them so I'm going to replace them with other waterstones.

I plan on getting a set of Sigmas from Tools from Japan. Shapton, Naniwa, Bester are others I've considered as well.

Whatever you choose, stick with it. If you do get the Nortons take your time, do a lot of sharpening and get a feel for them. Who knows? You may love them. Whatever you do though, do NOT get the Norton flattening stone. Piece. Of. Crap. Couldn't flatten a taco shell if you dropped it on one, muchless a waterstone.

--------------------
Jason



Edited by Jason28 (02/01/14 08:19 AM)


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Window Guy
Honored Veteran

Registered: 06/03/01
Posts: 12366
Loc: St. Cloud,Fl., USA
Re: Sharpening Stones? new [Re: GeorgeV]
      #6651025 - 02/01/14 08:51 AM

I have the Sigma Power stones, 1000, 6000, and 8000 grit and love them, got these from Schtoo "Stu" at Tools from Japan.

If I were to buy diamond stones I would buy the Eze - Lap, this is what Paul Sellers use's and swears by them as opposed to DMT. Just my $.02.

Steve


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Rob Young
Helper Monkey

Registered: 10/02/09
Posts: 1659
Loc: Lawrence, KS
Re: Sharpening Stones? new [Re: GeorgeV]
      #6651067 - 02/01/14 09:54 AM

GeorgeV said:


I have been using sand paper of varying grits to sharpen my chisels and planes and have decided to change my habits and use sharpening stones.

I thought that I had narrowed my choice to Norton waterstones 1000, 4000 and 8000 or even a 1000/4000 combination stone.

But considering that waterstones need to be flattened, I am also considering the DMT Dia-sharp stones 1000, 4000, 8000.

I am sure that many Woodnet members have a preference and would like to hear opinions. I really am not interested in Arkansas stones or Japenese stones.




So, a sharpening thread, eh? Feeling mischievous were you?

Seriously though, the Norton's are OK stones for the price. So are the King stones. You just have to invest in some way of keeping them flat. When I was using waterstones I used just an 800 (King) and an 8,000 (I forget the brand, Bear maybe?) for maintenance sharpening. Worked great. The 800 was kept flat at first by rubbing it on sandpaper stuck to the granite plate I kept around for flattening backs (80 grit paper, etc.). Later I bought a DMT 220 grit diamond plate and used that. Strop with green compound was my final step and maintenance at the bench step. Have an artificial nagura stone for my 8000 and that makes a great slurry and helps keep the 8000 flat.

Then I decided I wanted to experiment further with diamond stones so I bought a 600 and 1200 EZE-Lap brand (less expensive than the DMTs) and those are great. Used that for the past year, following up with a strop. Get a sharp edge, but maybe not as pretty of a shine on the edge as the water stones. But sharp none the less.

This year I'm experimenting with Soft Arkansas, Surgical Black ($40 for a doubled sided 8x2 pair) followed once again by the strop. So far, it does just as good of a job as either of the other two systems. Seems just as fast for keeping things in trim. I haven't tried to rehabilitate a blade using the Ark stones. I would probably drop back to the diamond stones for serious stock removal because I know the 220 and 600 will do that. Need more work, drop back to the grinder.

During all this transitioning, I've mostly stopped using a honing guide except when I completely bugger something. But that is also a sign I can't keep my concentration and shouldn't be messing about with sharp objects anyway. My steels are a mix of W1, O1, A2 and D2 (or some other knifemaker's hard stuff, not entirely sure). All sharpen just fine on any of the methods I've tried and all at a reasonable speed so long as the stones are clean & flat.

Short answer, you will do just fine with the Norton stones, King or Bear as the less expensive stones. They will require maintenance so just get in the habit of flattening them after every use. Add a nagura to your shopping list too. If you feel you will be sticking with this method for a few years, go with the Shaptons instead. Or give Schtoo a PM and have him set you up with some Sigma stones. Both of those brands will wear better than the Norton/Bear/King stones.

But all of them will get your blades sharp.

--------------------
Don't sweat the petty things and don't pet the sweaty things. -- G. Carlin


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AHill
Honored Veteran

Registered: 01/16/06
Posts: 6185
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Re: Sharpening Stones? new [Re: GeorgeV]
      #6651174 - 02/01/14 12:01 PM

I used Nortons for several years, then upgraded to Shapton Pros. The Shapton ceramic stones kept flatter, but the higher grits occasionally would exhibit sticktion (blade "sticks" to the stone). When the Sigma stones started to become available, I tried them and I'm very happy. They cut very fast, and don't have as much stiction. The Nortons and Shaptons just gather dust.

--------------------
Still Learning,

Allan Hill


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Axehandle
No bit---short handle

Registered: 09/27/09
Posts: 3431
Loc: Savannah
Re: Sharpening Stones? new [Re: AHill]
      #6651180 - 02/01/14 12:09 PM

I see a theme.

Everybody used to use Nortons.

In other words it seems they are good to start on to get your feet wet. Looking back, I would just go with some of the other suggestions made here whether you are just starting out or looking to upgrade from something else.

Window Guy said:



If I were to buy diamond stones I would buy the Eze - Lap, this is what Paul Sellers use's and swears by them as opposed to DMT. Just my $.02.

Steve




I was wondering what those were. They are nicely affordable too like so many other things he recommends.


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GeorgeV
Member

Registered: 11/28/09
Posts: 757
Loc: Bowie, Maryland
Re: Sharpening Stones? new [Re: AHill]
      #6651203 - 02/01/14 12:43 PM

So if I were to consider the Sigma ceramic water stones, would the 1000, 3000, 10000 be comparable to the Norton 1000, 4000, 8000? Do they need to be flattened like the Nortons?

Would the Bester/Imanishi stones be a better choice than the Sigma?

LV offers all these stones, the choice keeps getting harder!

--------------------
if it ain't broke, you're not tryin'
Quando omni flunkus, moritati.
Red Green



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Window Guy
Honored Veteran

Registered: 06/03/01
Posts: 12366
Loc: St. Cloud,Fl., USA
Re: Sharpening Stones? new [Re: GeorgeV]
      #6651254 - 02/01/14 01:51 PM

When I bought my Sigma Power stones Schtoo didn't have the 10000 or the 13000 at that time, but to answer your question that would be a good choice. Better yet give a shout out to Stu he will set you straight and not try and sell you a bill of goods, he was very helpful for me.

Also which I forgot to mention I bought the Atoma 400 Diamond Plate which I use to flatten my stones only. I do this after each use or every other use at the most and it only take's seconds to flatten. Neither my stones or the Diamond Plate after over 3 years of use has shown any wear. I use my stones and diamond plate most weekends and during the week when I can.

Steve


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Axehandle
No bit---short handle

Registered: 09/27/09
Posts: 3431
Loc: Savannah
Re: Sharpening Stones? new [Re: GeorgeV]
      #6651297 - 02/01/14 02:36 PM

GeorgeV said:


So if I were to consider the Sigma ceramic water stones, would the 1000, 3000, 10000 be comparable to the Norton 1000, 4000, 8000? Do they need to be flattened like the Nortons?

Would the Bester/Imanishi stones be a better choice than the Sigma?

LV offers all these stones, the choice keeps getting harder!




I would get the 1000 and 10000. Spend the money you save from the 3000 to buy the Atoma 400 flattening plate/diamond stone that Steve mentions. LV also sells the Atoma.


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thomasegan
Member

Registered: 03/26/08
Posts: 153
Loc: Midwest/ Illinois/ Corn Crib
Re: Sharpening Stones? new [Re: GeorgeV]
      #6651310 - 02/01/14 02:50 PM

A small contribution, perhaps -- when it comes to flattening stones or using sandpaper -- an excellent flat surface is granite.
A very nice slab of granite for cheap can be had by visiting your local monument (tombstone) company or a counter top shop that uses granite. Smile, ask for a scrap. I got a 2ft by 1ft piece for 5 bucks.
I've had Starrett straightedges, etc on this; it is within .001 over a foot or more.
I'd rather save some money this way. It also serves as a portable surface for constructin other things- like boxes.
YMMV
te


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chriscos
Member

Registered: 04/13/12
Posts: 59
Re: Sharpening Stones? new [Re: GeorgeV]
      #6653498 - 02/03/14 07:45 PM

George,

I went with Norton individual stones; 220, 1000, 4000, 8000 and a DMT "Dia-Flat™ Lapping Plate" to keep them flat.

Now, I am no sharpening expert (I read Leonard Lee's book on sharpening and I got a quick in-person tutorial from Deneb at Lee Nielson) but I am able to get my chisels and plane's "scary sharp" (to me) using only those stones and a honing guide.

I've not tried any other methods of sharpening, because using the stones and the guide have just "worked", quite simply and effectively, for me.

You really do need to flatten the stones often. Just search for the lee nielson/deneb sharpening tutorial on youtube to see how oven he flattens his stones. It is more often then I would have thought.

Good luck. Once you get the hang of it, there is nothing better getting a tool sharp quickly and easily.


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Bill Lyman
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Registered: 07/04/06
Posts: 507
Loc: Darien, IL & Fripp Island, SC
Re: Sharpening Stones? new [Re: chriscos]
      #6653513 - 02/03/14 07:55 PM

chriscos said:


George,

I went with Norton individual stones; 220, 1000, 4000, 8000 and a DMT "Dia-Flat™ Lapping Plate" to keep them flat.

You really do need to flatten the stones often. Just search for the lee nielson/deneb sharpening tutorial on youtube to see how oven he flattens his stones. It is more often then I would have thought.
y.




+1. There may be other stones and other systems, but this works over and over again. Flattening the stones on the Dia-Flat lapping plate really doesn't take any time.
Bill Lyman


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AHill
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Re: Sharpening Stones? new [Re: chriscos]
      #6653666 - 02/03/14 10:00 PM

The Norton 220 might be the softest stone I've ever used. In my experience, it goes out of flat after only about 2 min of use. I would much, much rather use 220 grit sandpaper on granite than use a 220 grit Norton stone.

chriscos said:


I went with Norton individual stones; 220, 1000, 4000, 8000 and a DMT "Dia-Flat™ Lapping Plate" to keep them flat.




--------------------
Still Learning,

Allan Hill


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FordPrefect
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Re: Sharpening Stones? new [Re: Bill Lyman]
      #6653785 - 02/04/14 06:23 AM

Bill Lyman said:


Wilbur Pan said:


But the main thing is to practice with whatever sharpening regimen you wind up with. Stick to it, and you’ll have good results.



+1 . I use the Nortons and get good results. Are others faster? I don't know. I have not tried 'em.
Bill Lyman



I use Kings and I am happy with them, but I also don't know how the others work. Ignorance is bliss

When my current stones wear out in 20 years, I'll try something new.


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GeorgeV
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Registered: 11/28/09
Posts: 757
Loc: Bowie, Maryland
Re: Sharpening Stones? new [Re: Window Guy]
      #6655417 - 02/05/14 04:01 PM

I finally made a decision on which stones to purchase and have decided on the Sigma Power ceramic 1000-6000-13000 set which includes the Atoma 400 to flatten the stones.

Stu was a big help and I thank you for your advice and the opinions offered by everyone on this forum to help guide my decision.

I look forward to receiving the stones.

--------------------
if it ain't broke, you're not tryin'
Quando omni flunkus, moritati.
Red Green



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cputnam
Member

Registered: 01/28/03
Posts: 4642
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Re: Sharpening Stones? new [Re: GeorgeV]
      #6655513 - 02/05/14 05:48 PM

Since I did the same thing (and am very happy about it) I think it is a great decision.

--------------------
Thanks, Curt
-----------------
"Life can only be understood backwards; but it must be lived forwards."
-- Soren Kierkegaard


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Window Guy
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Registered: 06/03/01
Posts: 12366
Loc: St. Cloud,Fl., USA
Re: Sharpening Stones? new [Re: GeorgeV]
      #6656098 - 02/06/14 10:52 AM

GeorgeV said:


I finally made a decision on which stones to purchase and have decided on the Sigma Power ceramic 1000-6000-13000 set which includes the Atoma 400 to flatten the stones.

Stu was a big help and I thank you for your advice and the opinions offered by everyone on this forum to help guide my decision.

I look forward to receiving the stones.





George good for you, I don't think you will be disappointed. Just keep the stones flat before they get way out of whack. I flattened mine after each use or at the very least after the second use depends on how much sharpening / honing I did , a few pencil hatch's and a few seconds later you are done.

Steve


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GeorgeV
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Registered: 11/28/09
Posts: 757
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Re: Sharpening Stones? new [Re: Window Guy]
      #6691002 - 03/17/14 12:21 PM

Just to update this thread, I received my Sigma Ceramic stones from Tools from Japan http://www.toolsfromjapan.com/store/inde...roducts_id=1667 on March 14th, they were shipped February 12th. Not bad considering the distance.

I have spent the last several days sharpening some of my plane blades and the results are superb. The 13000 stone puts a finish on in which I could shave.

Steve (Window Guy) recommended these to me and he was right on.

They are fantastic and the deal that T of J offers includes 1000-6000-13000 stones, a Atoma 400 for flattening, a tray and mounting block for the stone and a bottle to add water to the stones while sharpening.

I would not hesitate to recommend these to anyone especially those just getting started in sharpening. The packaging was superb and dealing with T of J was a pleasure.

Thanks again Steve for your recommendation.

--------------------
if it ain't broke, you're not tryin'
Quando omni flunkus, moritati.
Red Green



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Window Guy
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Registered: 06/03/01
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Re: Sharpening Stones? new [Re: GeorgeV]
      #6691970 - 03/18/14 09:23 AM

Hey George, you are welcome. I am pleased to hear they are working out for you, I know I am very happy with my set up although I only go to 8000 grit as the 13,000 wasn't available at the time i bought mine.

And again I thank Schtoo "Stu" for his time and patients he spent with me he was a big help.

Steve


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WoodTinker
Hoarding lumber since 2007

Registered: 05/03/07
Posts: 1658
Loc: Montgomery Village, Maryland
Re: Sharpening Stones? new [Re: Window Guy]
      #6693012 - 03/19/14 09:42 AM

Chris Schwarz switched back to Arkansas oil stones for his sharpening regime.

--------------------
WoodTinker


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patriarch
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Registered: 10/27/07
Posts: 7314
Loc: Northern California
Re: Sharpening Stones? new [Re: WoodTinker]
      #6693037 - 03/19/14 10:16 AM

WoodTinker said:


Chris Schwarz switched back to Arkansas oil stones for his sharpening regime.




So did I, but nobody cared.


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NateClark
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Registered: 02/01/13
Posts: 18
Loc: Ithaca, NY
Re: Sharpening Stones? new [Re: GeorgeV]
      #6693264 - 03/19/14 01:41 PM

GeorgeV said:


I have been using sand paper of varying grits to sharpen my chisels and planes and have decided to change my habits and use sharpening stones.
I thought that I had narrowed my choice to Norton waterstones 1000, 4000 and 8000 or even a 1000/4000 combination stone.

But considering that waterstones need to be flattened, I am also considering the DMT Dia-sharp stones 1000, 4000, 8000.

I am sure that many Woodnet members have a preference and would like to hear opinions. I really am not interested in Arkansas stones or Japenese stones.




I use a grinder to get a hollow ground on my chisel and plane blades. I use a tormek but I suppose a regular grinder would also work fine for this.

Then I use the long "course" DMT stone to lap the back followed by a shorter "fine" DMT stone on the back of the blade. The leather wheel gives me a stupid-sharp micro-bevel.

If I'm in a hurry, I skip the hollow grind and just use the course stone to clean up the bevel then lap as usual and leather wheel the micro-bevel.

Before I bought a tormek, I used Japanese water stones and they do work great, just more time consuming. Sans tormek, I would stick with my DMT stones and just use a very fine Japanese h2o stone for the micro bevel. Lee valley has a cool sharpening guide, or at least they did 10+ years ago when I was hand sharpening.


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Roger A
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Registered: 03/16/04
Posts: 822
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Re: Sharpening Stones? new [Re: NateClark]
      #6693301 - 03/19/14 02:14 PM

Do not do what I did! I recently used my Norton 220 grit to regrind the bevel on a plane blade to 30 deg from 25. Worked ok I guess, even gave it a few strokes on my diamond plate to flatten it. I honed the blade and thought, that is funny, the finer stones are not giving a straight micro bevel, oh well, moved on the blade was sharp. I then went to my next blade and began by flattening the back on my 220 norton. What a mistake! When i moved on to my 320 grit diamind plate, all I did was polish the center of the back! I thought and thought and then had an OH SH*T moment. I checked the norton 220 grit and man was is dished! It took me a long time to get the back flattened again using sandpaper on granite, and my diamond plate. Afterward, I checked and flattened all of my stones. I will tell you that they dish MUCH FASTER than I ever thought they would! And if you flatten your blade backs with a dished stone, you will regret it!!!

Anyway, lesson learned.

Another point, I have a 6000 grit King stone and I feel like it is too big of a step to go from the king (?) 1000 grit I have. I am looking either for a better 1000 grit or to an intermediate grit. the 6000 grit King is more of a polishing stone, it generates a good slurry for a few strokes, and then the grit breaks down to much finer, and you have to rinse it off.

Last question, how long lasting are the Shapton glass stones REALLY? With only 5mm of grit thickness, I am worried they will not last very long.

Thanks, great thread really pertinent to what I recently went through!

Roger


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BlueMaxx
Honored Veteran, and oddly stuck looking for a snazzy title

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Loc: Der Rathskeller
Re: Sharpening Stones? new [Re: WoodTinker]
      #6693318 - 03/19/14 02:29 PM

WoodTinker said:


Chris Schwarz switched back to Arkansas oil stones for his sharpening regime.







every thing old is new again





--------------------





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Timberwolf
Honored Veteran and lant something or other

Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 66853
Loc: Sparkling Clearwater, Florida
Re: Sharpening Stones? new [Re: BlueMaxx]
      #6693382 - 03/19/14 03:17 PM

Guess he finally came to his senses!

--------------------
"The safest place in Korea was right behind a platoon of Marine riflemen. Lord, how those boys could fight!"
MGen. Frank E. Lowe, U.S. Army; Korea, 26 January 1952 {in a report to President Truman} .

Jack Edgar USMC.. Korea '51/'52







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Wilbur Pan
Member

Registered: 01/26/07
Posts: 3958
Loc: East Brunswick, NJ
Re: Sharpening Stones? new [Re: Timberwolf]
      #6693430 - 03/19/14 03:59 PM

Well, this was his last sharpening video, from less than a year ago.

http://youtu.be/n5QDKMrGrqI

Shapton Pro waterstones, in the house!

--------------------
Hail St. Roy, Full of Grace, The Schwarz is with thee.
Blessed art thou among woodworkers, and blessed is the fruit of thy saw, dovetails.
Holy St. Roy, Master of Chisels, pray for us sharpeners now, and at the hour of planing.
Amen.
$300 is a lot of Money!
giant Cypress: Japanese tool blog


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AHill
Honored Veteran

Registered: 01/16/06
Posts: 6185
Loc: Antelope Valley, California
Re: Sharpening Stones? new [Re: Roger A]
      #6693589 - 03/19/14 07:20 PM

Just curious. Were you using the 220 stone on the back of the blade? I would have thought the opposite would have occured if all you were doing was re-establishing the bevel. If the former, you can add that to your lessons learned - don't mess with an already flat back.

Roger A said:


Do not do what I did! I recently used my Norton 220 grit to regrind the bevel on a plane blade to 30 deg from 25. Worked ok I guess, even gave it a few strokes on my diamond plate to flatten it. I honed the blade and thought, that is funny, the finer stones are not giving a straight micro bevel, oh well, moved on the blade was sharp. I then went to my next blade and began by flattening the back on my 220 norton. What a mistake! When i moved on to my 320 grit diamind plate, all I did was polish the center of the back! I thought and thought and then had an OH SH*T moment. I checked the norton 220 grit and man was is dished! It took me a long time to get the back flattened again using sandpaper on granite, and my diamond plate. Afterward, I checked and flattened all of my stones. I will tell you that they dish MUCH FASTER than I ever thought they would! And if you flatten your blade backs with a dished stone, you will regret it!!!

Anyway, lesson learned.

Another point, I have a 6000 grit King stone and I feel like it is too big of a step to go from the king (?) 1000 grit I have. I am looking either for a better 1000 grit or to an intermediate grit. the 6000 grit King is more of a polishing stone, it generates a good slurry for a few strokes, and then the grit breaks down to much finer, and you have to rinse it off.

Last question, how long lasting are the Shapton glass stones REALLY? With only 5mm of grit thickness, I am worried they will not last very long.

Thanks, great thread really pertinent to what I recently went through!

Roger




--------------------
Still Learning,

Allan Hill


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AHill
Honored Veteran

Registered: 01/16/06
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Re: Sharpening Stones? new [Re: WoodTinker]
      #6693593 - 03/19/14 07:29 PM

From Schwarz's blog in July 2011:

"So should you follow suit and switch to oilstones?

"No. Stick with the system you are exploring right now. But if you haven’t chosen a system, don’t let the sharpening snobs talk you out of trying oilstones. They are tremendous.

"So that is why I recently switched to oilstones. I sold one of my set of Shaptons. I’ll probably hold onto the other for when I teach classes, or until the day comes when I have a dedicated sharpening area in my shop."

http://blog.lostartpress.com/2011/07/27/oilstones-waterstones-whatever/

Schwarz's reasons for switching was he moved from the PWW shop to his home, where space was limited and access to water was not available.

WoodTinker said:


Chris Schwarz switched back to Arkansas oil stones for his sharpening regime.




--------------------
Still Learning,

Allan Hill


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Steve Friedman
Member

Registered: 06/17/09
Posts: 2882
Loc: New Jersey
Re: Sharpening Stones? new [Re: AHill]
      #6693610 - 03/19/14 07:51 PM

I just wish CS could make up his mind so I could know which type of stones to buy!



Steve (whose Sigma 13000 will have to be ripped from his cold dead hands)


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Roger A
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Registered: 03/16/04
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Re: Sharpening Stones? new [Re: AHill]
      #6693775 - 03/20/14 05:52 AM

The back I was honing had a little pitting on and near the edge I was trying to eliminate, which it did very well by the way, just took off more material on the edges of the blade than the center. I really did not think I was removing that much material. In fact I likely did not remove that much, but sure as heck made getting the back polished very difficult.

I could have solved the problem by using the 'ruler trick' and polishing just the very tip, or by putting a back bevel on the blade.

What was interesting was that I kept going back and forth between the diamond plate and the 220 because I did not understand what the wear pattern was telling me. on the 220 the back takes on a uniform wear pattern, but on the diamond plate only the center was getting polished. Should have realized sooner what was up!

Roger


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Steve Friedman
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Re: Sharpening Stones? new [Re: Roger A]
      #6693856 - 03/20/14 07:45 AM

Roger A said:


And if you flatten your blade backs with a dished stone, you will regret it!!!



Roger,

You're right, but in my experience, it takes a lot less than a dished stone to make back flattening unpleasant. I think the problem can be more subtle. Each type of medium we use (sandpaper, diamond plates, stones, etc.) may be flat, but not necessarily flat relative to each other. For back flattening, I try to do three things:

First, I only use two different media - PSA sandpaper on granite and water stones.

Next, I make sure that each medium is flat. For example, I only use one brand of sandpaper, one granite plate, and make sure to flatten all the water stones with the same diamond plate (at least the same brand).

Finally, pay particular attention when crossing over from the sandpaper to the stones. I usually stop at 280 or 400 grit sandpaper, but then use a 320 grit Cerax or 400 grit Sigma stone to manage the cross-over to the water stones. The job of that cross-over stone is to convert the blade geometry from "granite plate flat" to "water stone flat." That can involve a surprisingly large amount of steel removal, which is why I do it with such a low grit stone. It's also why I don't increase the grit at the same time. Once that initial "cross-over" stone has done it's work, it's very quick to run through the higher grit stones. If I see any variation in the area being abraded, it's always quickly resolved by checking the flatness of the stones with pencil marks.

Obviously this procedure isn't necessary for routine sharpening. It may also not be necessary for re-establishing a primary bevel, but I use it anyway. I think the extra effort pays off in time and effort saved.

Steve


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WoodTinker
Hoarding lumber since 2007

Registered: 05/03/07
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Loc: Montgomery Village, Maryland
Re: Sharpening Stones? new [Re: GeorgeV]
      #6695056 - 03/21/14 01:01 PM

After reading this thread for a while, I ended up ordering some Sigmas: 1000 and the 6000/13000 combo. The order went down in price by about $0.35 after hitting refresh a couple times. Guess the software recalculate depending on the Yen to Dollar exchange rate.

--------------------
WoodTinker


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Steve Friedman
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Re: Sharpening Stones? new [Re: WoodTinker]
      #6695114 - 03/21/14 01:47 PM

WoodTinker said:


After reading this thread for a while, I ended up ordering some Sigmas: 1000 and the 6000/13000 combo. The order went down in price by about $0.35 after hitting refresh a couple times. Guess the software recalculate depending on the Yen to Dollar exchange rate.



You will love them. I got the 1200 instead of the 1000 and it was fine. But, I later acquired a slightly used Shapton Pro 1000 it feels a bit more abrasive to me, so I started using that instead of the 1200. Very subjective, but I see that Derek has done the same thing so I can't be far off.

The Sigmas are great stones, but the 13000 has taken my blades to another level. I'm guessing that level of sharp is completely unnecessary (even Stu says so), but the edges sure are pretty.

I like shiny things.

Steve


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