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Hoody
Member

Registered: 12/01/06
Posts: 1413
Loc: The Old Country
Re: Does a chipbreaker really break chips? new [Re: wmickley]
      #4775833 - 03/05/10 11:51 AM

LIL.

When I picked up my first (and only) # 6 last year, I sharpened it, but did not spend much time on fettling; it is, after all, only a # 6..! I closed the mouth, set the chipbreaker as close as I dared and got fine shavings. I do not remember the softwood I tried it on, but I was impressed..!

Last weekend I pulled it out again, and planed some meranti. Woe is me! It clogged up that chipbreaker so fast, I could not believe it!

I got out the beltsander and the 4000/8000 Norton combination stone and fixed that chipbreaker good in no time!

Then I moved the frog and the chipbreaker back, and tried thick shavings. I did not measure these, but they were impressive and I did not get any clogging or tearout. (Meranti can be finicky sometimes, with odd grain.)

That made me happy!

I now have a # 6 that does what it is supposed to do. I really do not care what role the chipbreaker played in this transformation in performance. My plane came with one, and it works well with it. I'm sure that if I wanted to close the mouth again and shift the chipbreaker down as well, it will be a better big "smoother" than before, as well.

While I do not wish to detract from the merits of the discussion in this thread, this is really where it ends for me. My # 6 came with a chipbreaker, I have found a way to make it perform better and more versatile with its chipbreaker, so I'm happy.

Period!



Carry on, good folfs..!



Edited by Hoody (03/05/10 12:03 PM)


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Timberwolf
Honored Veteran and lant something or other

Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 44542
Loc: witless protection program
Re: Does a chipbreaker really break chips? new [Re: Hoody]
      #4776555 - 03/05/10 08:33 PM

A chipbreaker has one advantage IMO...it makes a thin blade "THINK" and act like it is thicker..

I have often thought about taking an old chipbreaker, flattening it out with the torch and silver soldering or epoxying it right to the edge of the blade... I haven't done it yet but I think the performance would be greatly improved...

Anyone want to try it and give us a report???

--------------------
"We fight not for honor, nor for wealth, nor for glory, but only and alone,we fight for FREEDOM, which no good man surrenders but with his life"
Robert the Bruce....Scotland 1329


Jack

Semper Fi, Mac
USMC '50/'55
Veterans, Korea



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LENPAM
INFILL MAGNET

Registered: 04/03/05
Posts: 8761
Loc: PORT CLINTON,OHIO
Re: Does a chipbreaker really break chips? new [Re: lwilliams]
      #4776603 - 03/05/10 09:36 PM

When do think chip breakers were invented? I beleive you'd have to consider cap irons or back irons chipbreakers and these go back to the later half of the 1800's and earlier yet in British metal planes[infills] as well as bevel up irons as seen in mitre planes and chariot planes and shoulder planes of the same period. Len

--------------------
INFILL MAGNET


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CedarSlayer
Killer of aromatic wood

Registered: 07/06/06
Posts: 2167
Loc: College Station, TX
Chip Breakers Work! new [Re: Timberwolf]
      #4776608 - 03/05/10 09:40 PM

I have a a change of heart. I now consider the chip breaker to be a brilliant enhancement to a plane.

Since my previous postings, I have been playing around with chip breakers quite a bit.

Previously, I did not see any strong reasons why a chip breaker was worth the effort. By my own observations, they double the complexity of adjustment, and potential for problems without much if any gain. I figured they were like training wheels for apprentices, or anti-vibration or tool steel saving devices allowing the use of thinner blades.

At the same time, this gnawed at me, the old timers liked them enough to adopt them big time.

In some ways we modern woodworkers are like children putting on our parents clothing. Power tools came and changed how things were made. They were not made any better, but some tasks were made faster, and less training was needed. As power tools took over, many skills were forgotten. There are mysteries now, that were obvious then.

The real eye opener, for me, came when using a chip breaker on the simplest possible plane. A straight forward Japanese plane with the classic and cheap Japanese bent ear sort of chip breaker. The brilliant simplicity of the plane allowed me to see exactly what a chip breaker can do for you. A chip breaker gives you four planes instead of one. It can even give a bit of range between these four planes.

If you have a sharp even chip breaker, you can tap the chip breaker right up to the edge of the blade, and take a folded type chip out. This allows you to plane harder rougher wood. The blade becomes a higher angle blade. The edge is supported and strengthened so the hard wood can be worked easily.

With the chip breaker just a half a hairs width back from the edge, the blade will handle odd wood grain quite well. The fine edge cuts easily, but the increased wedge next to the edge reduces wear on the blade and reduces the tendency for a blade to be pulled into the wood by the chip. The higher angle wedge reduces the downward pull on the blade.

With the chip breaker back to the normal hairs width from the edge it can take a nice, full blade width, shaving out of nice grained softwood with ease. Friction based wear on the actual blade is reduced by the wedge action of the chip breaker spreading the chip opening.

You can pull back the chip breaker further if you are trying to hog out a thicker chip of softwood. This opens the mouth when you need a more open mouth.

This gives you four planes in one. Four quality planes with the same basic configuration. No wonder the old time experts converted to chip breakers. Otherwise you need quite a few more specialty planes to deal with the less typical situations.

Your results may vary, but I suspect that as you experiment with using a chip breaker to adapt your plane to the type of wood you are handling, you will decide that chip breakers are a rather brilliant addition to a plane and well worth the extra effort.

Bob

--------------------
toolmakingart.com

When you have eliminated all unnecessary wood, then whatever remains, however well formed, is too small to serve as originally intended.


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DW Pgh
mean spiriteD

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 9503
Re: Chip Breakers Work! new [Re: CedarSlayer]
      #4776616 - 03/05/10 09:55 PM

The pictures shown prove to me usefulness that I didn't think was there (at least not in that amount). It's novel that it's a concept that works as long as it's tuned well.

In a world where I can afford planes of various angles, though, I would rather choose the proper angle with a single iron and make the mouth tight instead of having to fiddle with the chipbreaker every single time I sharpen the plane.

I really hate that. It adds considerable aggravation to sharpening (who hasn't accidentally had the chipbreaker slip down over an iron edge when you're setting it really tight), just like it's annoyance to get chips between the chipbreaker and the iron when you're planing.

It's novel, but no thanks other than the rigidity it adds.


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CedarSlayer
Killer of aromatic wood

Registered: 07/06/06
Posts: 2167
Loc: College Station, TX
Re: Chip Breakers Work! new [Re: DW Pgh]
      #4777406 - 03/06/10 04:31 PM

DW Pgh said:



In a world where I can afford planes of various angles, though, I would rather choose the proper angle with a single iron and make the mouth tight instead of having to fiddle with the chipbreaker every single time I sharpen the plane.

I really hate that. It adds considerable aggravation to sharpening (who hasn't accidentally had the chipbreaker slip down over an iron edge when you're setting it really tight), just like it's annoyance to get chips between the chipbreaker and the iron when you're planing.

It's novel, but no thanks other than the rigidity it adds.




I think that your reasoning is quite sound. Planes without chip breakers were made and sold side by side with the chip breakers.

My hypothesis is that a plane set up for a specific task, was probably preferred and did not use a chip breaker. A simpler tool being better for a specific task.

For a travel kit, or for an apprentice, a chip breaker gave three or four planes in one, and allowed for economy of space, weight and cost. I suspect that the normal state for the chip breaker was back for pine and forward for hardwood. So when a chip breaker was engaged or brought forward, it was in chip breaker mode.

Bob

--------------------
toolmakingart.com

When you have eliminated all unnecessary wood, then whatever remains, however well formed, is too small to serve as originally intended.


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Todd Hughes
Member

Registered: 07/29/04
Posts: 4790
Loc: Md. eastern shore
Re: Chip Breakers Work! new [Re: CedarSlayer]
      #4777440 - 03/06/10 05:07 PM

Chip Breakers or "cap irons" first came out toward the end of the 1700s and soon became common on most all but the cheaper wood planes.
Is crazy to think they were made so that a thin iron could be used and made stiffer...I've made a cap iron befor and it Is MUCH more difficult to make a cap iron and a thin iron then it is to simply make a single thick iron..This is why planes with chip breakers were more expensive.
.Also many of the irons used with chip breakers/ cap irons in these wooden planes were the same thickness or thicker then the single irons.
Chip breakers were very popular with wood workers by the early 1800s soon it was only the cheaper planes that didn't have them.
I find it hard to believe that wood workers would unerversially spend more money for an idea that didn't work or wasn't needed. Same way that plane makers would go to the consideable trouble to make a chip breaker blade when they could have just made a thicker single iron if they performed the same

Today I think the chip breaker is dissed by many guys that use single blades because they can't make one with a chip breaker...so you get told you don't need one or it is only to make a thin blade thicker...Todd.

--------------------
What "i think" is that you have a social disorder, and you're using this forum as a display for it.....DW Pugh


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CedarSlayer
Killer of aromatic wood

Registered: 07/06/06
Posts: 2167
Loc: College Station, TX
Re: Chip Breakers Work! new [Re: Todd Hughes]
      #4777681 - 03/06/10 08:19 PM

Todd Hughes said:


Chip Breakers or "cap irons" first came out toward the end of the 1700s and soon became common on most all but the cheaper wood planes.
Is crazy to think they were made so that a thin iron could be used and made stiffer...I've made a cap iron before and it Is MUCH more difficult to make a cap iron and a thin iron then it is to simply make a single thick iron..This is why planes with chip breakers were more expensive.
.Also many of the irons used with chip breakers/ cap irons in these wooden planes were the same thickness or thicker then the single irons.
Chip breakers were very popular with wood workers by the early 1800s soon it was only the cheaper planes that didn't have them.
I find it hard to believe that wood workers would universally spend more money for an idea that didn't work or wasn't needed. Same way that plane makers would go to the considerable trouble to make a chip breaker blade when they could have just made a thicker single iron if they performed the same

Today I think the chip breaker is dissed by many guys that use single blades because they can't make one with a chip breaker...so you get told you don't need one or it is only to make a thin blade thicker...Todd.




The Old catalogs that I can find, mostly support your arguments. I don't however find top irons particularly hard to make, but then I make them for wooden planes and don't have to worry about the drilling, slotting or tapping involved.

In the old catalogs, the specialty planes don't have chip breakers. Even the fancy ones. The more expensive bench planes, by shape, handle or material do.

In the Barton Mack 1910 Catalog, the Single Iron Razee Jack is $110 the Double Iron is $120. Tthe better smoother, jack, block and jointer and fore planes are all double ironed. So for them, the addition of a double iron was more expensive, but not prohibitive.

In the Melhuish 1925 Catalog, a few rabbets have double irons, but the scrub plane does not. The irons sell for more than the top irons, and cost more if they are larger. The top irons have a flat price.

I seem to recall a catalog with york and middle planes in it, but I am not finding it anywhere. As I recall the higher angle planes do not incorporate chip breakers. This would support my observation, but I cannot find this evidence right now.

Here is a bit of interesting data I just found while looking for plane catalogs, from the 1856 book, Turning and Mechanical Manipulation by Charles Holtzapffel, From The section discussing double irons.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The constant employment of the top iron in all available cases, shows the value of the improvement; and the circumstances of the plane working the smoother, but harder, when it is added, and the more so the closer it is down, demonstrate that its action is to break or bend the fibres. This is particularly observable in the coarse thick shavings of a double-iron jack plane, compared with those of the same thickness from a single-iron plane; the latter arc simply spiral and in easy curves, whereas those from the double-iron are broken across at short intervals, making their character more nearly polygonal; and the same difference is equally seen in thinner shavings, although of course less in degree.

Fig.326 represents the iron of a plane intended "for the use of cabinet-makers and others, who require to cut either hard or coarse-grained wood," the upper bevil given to the iron, being considered to dispense with the necessity for the top-iron; but it is obviously much more difficult to produce a true right-lined edge, by the meeting of two planes, each subject to error in sharpening, than when one exists permanently flat as in the broad surface of the blade.*
*****************************************
While his first argument is that a chip breaker does indeed break chips, the blade modification he describes as an alternative for a chip breaker, is specifically intended for hard or coarse grained wood. He also indicates that the closer the top iron's edge is to the cutting blades edge, the greater the action of it.

Since my personal observation is that the chip breaker helps with harder wood, It is nice to find an old source that tends to support my observations and hypothesis.

Bob

--------------------
toolmakingart.com

When you have eliminated all unnecessary wood, then whatever remains, however well formed, is too small to serve as originally intended.


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JimReed@Tallahassee
Orphaned Plane Doctor

Registered: 09/26/06
Posts: 4190
Re: Chip Breakers Work! new [Re: CedarSlayer]
      #4777763 - 03/06/10 09:21 PM

CedarSlayer said:


In the old catalogs, the specialty planes don't have chip breakers. Even the fancy ones. The more expensive bench planes, by shape, handle or material do.





That follows my observations--specialty planes, moulding planes, shoulder planes, and scraper planes do not have chipbreakers. Low angle planes do not have chipbreakers. Skew planes do not have chipbreakers. Combination planes do not have chipbreakers.

In my observations, only bench planes have chipbreakers. For the most part, specialty planes have narrow blades and bench planes have wide blades. Perhaps their value is keeping the blades from warping during use.


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Timberwolf
Honored Veteran and lant something or other

Registered: 06/05/02
Posts: 44542
Loc: witless protection program
Re: Chip Breakers Work! new [Re: JimReed@Tallahassee]
      #4777872 - 03/06/10 10:57 PM

Just an observation, but some of the highest rated smoothers do not have "chipbreakers" yet they compete very favorably with the best of them in competition..Knight planes are an example and IIRC, his planes ranked right up there with the best in tests done about five years ago..

As far as chipbreakers go, the early makers knew how to make a buck and no doubt they hyped them up pretty highly..But I believe the main purpose they serve is in damping blade vibration..especially on thin blades, and we know that Stanley in particular, touted the advantages of thin blades in their brochure...

--------------------
"We fight not for honor, nor for wealth, nor for glory, but only and alone,we fight for FREEDOM, which no good man surrenders but with his life"
Robert the Bruce....Scotland 1329


Jack

Semper Fi, Mac
USMC '50/'55
Veterans, Korea



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