Richard D. said:

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Joe,
Any chance you've had a previous issue with Rockler?

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Ya think.

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NoTalentRookie said:

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Highland don't have Cookies.

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But they do have biscuits

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Bill




ATHEISM IS A NON-PROPHET ORGANIZATION

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Bill_de said:

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NoTalentRookie said:

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Highland don't have Cookies.

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But they do have biscuits

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Meh. Biscuits are so 20th century.

As for Rockler, some of their prices make me laugh, but I've bought a lot of stuff from them when the price was right.

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speckledpig said:

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I think their email server is overheating.

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PaulJohnstone said:

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I really don't understand all the hate for Rockler , Woodcraft, etc.

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Garasaki said:

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What a bizarre post.

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NoTalentRookie said:

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Highland don't have Cookies.

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hey, that's my icon!

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--Mike

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Dimner said:

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hey, that's my icon!

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Yeah....I've noticed yours before. I figure......you've been here longer, but I have a higher post count. Whata ya say we call it a draw, and both keep it.

Besides.....mine's cropped down so they're not exactly the same.

I knew, sooner or later we'd post in the same thread.



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**************************************
Cats land on their feet. Toast lands jellyside down.
A cat glued to some jelly toast will hover in quantum indecision.

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avi oren said:

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I LOVE ROCKLER and don't forget that only 25 years ago there were no: Rocklers, Woodcrafts, Lee Valleys, Incras, Home Depots, Lowes, etc. IT WAS A DESOLATE LANDSCAPE FOR WOODWORKERS

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You can thank a guy named Norm for that change ...

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I do not fault them one bit. What they say and feel about hand tools may very well be true. Yet to be able to make a living and produce enough work to do so, I use whatever tools will do the job most accurately and most efficiently. - Sam Maloof

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BarryO said:

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avi oren said:

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I LOVE ROCKLER and don't forget that only 25 years ago there were no: Rocklers, Woodcrafts, Lee Valleys, Incras, Home Depots, Lowes, etc. IT WAS A DESOLATE LANDSCAPE FOR WOODWORKERS

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You can thank a guy named Norm for that change ...

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True dat, some big shoes to fill, hoping we don`t backslide with him gone.

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Worst thing they can do is cook ya and eat ya

Steve

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avi oren said:

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I LOVE ROCKLER and don't forget that only 25 years ago there were no: Rocklers, Woodcrafts, Lee Valleys, Incras, Home Depots, Lowes, etc. IT WAS A DESOLATE LANDSCAPE FOR WOODWORKERS

Only Sears (and Montgomery Ward)!!!!

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junque col said:

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avi oren said:

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I LOVE ROCKLER and don't forget that only 25 years ago there were no: Rocklers, Woodcrafts, Lee Valleys, Incras, Home Depots, Lowes, etc. IT WAS A DESOLATE LANDSCAPE FOR WOODWORKERS

Only Sears (and Montgomery Ward)!!!!

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Rockler started in 1954, that's 55 years ago according to my math. Lowes first opened their store in Raleigh, in the early sixties, which would also have been over 25 years ago. It used to be in Raleigh, if you wanted a woodworking machine, you went down to Dillon Supply, on West Street, and ordered it from Delta. FWW recently had their 30th anniversary. Several of the WW mags are over 25 years old

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When I bought my first tools, well over 25 years ago, there was Sears. They had just about every type of tool you could think of. If they didn't have it in the store, they had it in the catalog. The quality was considered good, but there wasn't much I could compare it too, because just about everyone I knew had Craftsman. The few tools that folks had that weren't Craftsman were 'borrowed' from work.

Wood came from the local lumber yard. You could wander through the yard to pick out what you wanted, or call Joe and he would deliver, after he closed at 5, and put everything in the basement. Sometimes he'd stay for dinner.

In some ways things were easier back then. The biggest problem was that, as a percentage of income, tools were much more expensive.

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Bill




ATHEISM IS A NON-PROPHET ORGANIZATION

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daveferg said:

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Disagree on tool prices. If someone wanted some basic hand tools today, they'll pay much more for them.

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daveferg said:

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And Bill---I'd politely suggest you look at hand tool prices again, compared to Sears of a couple decades ago. Since they are no longer in the mass market (as they were at Sears) prices have risen simply because of the rise of boutique type tool stores. And compared to costs of power tools, it's easy to see why people are hesitant to get back to hand tools. Figuring against income or dollar value----who knows.

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I think a cross between Norm getting a LOT of folks interested, and showcasing tools other than Sears, and Sears of a few decades ago deciding that they were going to offer much lower quality goods and raise prices is the reason the Rocklers, WoodCrafts, went form single stores to a chain, so that a decent quality tool could be obtained when the biggest prior provider choose to abandon good quality tools.

Their initial success proves this point, now they are losing ground to the same or better quality tools, but brought to you via catalogs, and the internet where a series of expensive brick and mortars isn`t needed. Even Rockler, and WoodCraft are heading this way, and with Rockler if a brick n mortar isn`t cutting it, it gets closed. I`m not sure if WoodCraft is selling as many franchises these days either. All across the country independents also started to increase their size, WoodWerks in Columbus, and Hartville tool for Ohio have shown growth in that time period as well.

Sears as the best place for tools stopped being around 1970, and continued to dumpster dive for several years. Only recently have they ehhhhhhh, made adjustments.

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Worst thing they can do is cook ya and eat ya

Steve

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daveferg said:

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And Bill---I'd politely suggest you look at hand tool prices again, compared to Sears of a couple decades ago. Since they are no longer in the mass market (as they were at Sears) prices have risen simply because of the rise of boutique type tool stores. And compared to costs of power tools, it's easy to see why people are hesitant to get back to hand tools. Figuring against income or dollar value----who knows.

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Cian said:

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I still say woodworking is the new golf.

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I agree.

When I was a kid, guys played rec leauge softball, drank beer and if they worked with wood, they made hamster cages, spice racks, bird houses and toilet paper holders.

A lot of nails were used ( ). Even for stuff that was to be kept indoors, and these weren't cut nails or some snazzy thing.

Oak was considered "nice wood" back then, too, dad considered it a pain to work with because it was hard to nail (sorry oak fans, I get offended by it if the project doesn't involve riving). And everything was stained.

Norm really helped people want to get out there and do things (and spend money) and guys like Roy Underhill started looking less like a history lesson on TV to something you could actually get into doing.

A quick view through any FWW from the early 90s will show that tool prices haven't changed a lot, and with inflation adjustment, they've gotten a lot cheaper. Combination of thinning margins, the internet and overseas production is responsible for a lot of that, I'm sure.

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DW Pgh said:

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I agree.

When I was a kid, guys played rec leauge softball, drank beer and if they worked with wood, they made hamster cages, spice racks, bird houses and toilet paper holders.

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Cian said:

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And a few dollars on a single item won't sway me one way or another if I'm also buying a bunch of stuff from the same vendor. Sure, I'm a cheapskate like the rest of us, but I know we're smart enough to balance one's purchases against shipping costs and fuel let alone the value of one's time.

Rockler has some items cheaper. Woodcraft on others. Amazon on others still. And we won't forget Lee Valley and Hartville and Holbren and ??? They all serve a much needed purpose/outlet, and we are clearly much better off with having these multiple options.

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DW Pgh said:

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A quick view through any FWW from the early 90s will show that tool prices haven't changed a lot, and with inflation adjustment, they've gotten a lot cheaper. Combination of thinning margins, the internet and overseas production is responsible for a lot of that, I'm sure.

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Admiral said:

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DW Pgh said:

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A quick view through any FWW from the early 90s will show that tool prices haven't changed a lot, and with inflation adjustment, they've gotten a lot cheaper. Combination of thinning margins, the internet and overseas production is responsible for a lot of that, I'm sure.

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Absolutely right.

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That all sounds a bit xenophobic to me. A more realistic explanation is supply and demand. There are a lot more tool manufacturers now with a wider product line. More competition means lower prices. Good for us consumers.

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RD

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NoTalentRookie said:

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Dimner said:

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hey, that's my icon!

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Yeah....I've noticed yours before. I figure......you've been here longer, but I have a higher post count. Whata ya say we call it a draw, and both keep it.

Besides.....mine's cropped down so they're not exactly the same.

I knew, sooner or later we'd post in the same thread.

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That was my first post since 2005... so I think your more than welcome to use it. If I start posting alot again, I will change it.

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--Mike

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Richard D. said:

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Admiral said:

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DW Pgh said:

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A quick view through any FWW from the early 90s will show that tool prices haven't changed a lot, and with inflation adjustment, they've gotten a lot cheaper. Combination of thinning margins, the internet and overseas production is responsible for a lot of that, I'm sure.

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Absolutely right.

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That all sounds a bit xenophobic to me. A more realistic explanation is supply and demand. There are a lot more tool manufacturers now with a wider product line. More competition means lower prices. Good for us consumers.

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Good, God. There's nothing xenophobic about it, it's just the market doing what it takes to stay in business or grow if they can.

The overseas production, I think, is probably the biggest determinant in keeping things like PC's barrel sander about the same price as it was 20 years ago.

Same thing with any items casted or machined. It's just the way it is, not xenophobic at all.

They all also know that mid-grade tools, at least what i'd consider mid grade, like cabinet table saws and dewalt or PC quality level hand held power tools are no longer just aimed at contractors - they're aimed more and more at DIYers.

If you looked at what the old milwaukee and dewalt tool prices were 20 years ago and inflation adjusted them, I wouldn't be surprised if the numbers looked about what like festool and fein prices look like for similar tools - for a simple reason - fein and festool decided they were better off staying the course.

There's no real magic in it. End thought of mine, though, is that it's better now for a DIYer or a hobbyist than it would've been 20 years ago - for both power tools and hand tools.

The group who loses at a little is the pros, the ones who put a new tool in the hands of the uninitiated and let them run them all day. I heard a guy at rockler the last time I was there who mentioned that he was buying PC sanders but in the end, it's cheaper for him to buy festool sanders, because his employees can kill a PC sander once every six months. 20 years ago, maybe the PC sander of the same model was a little better, but a hobbyist who is going to use it once every two weeks is never going to wear it out - at least not at the rate of some guy who's going to run it hours a day trying to get a job done as fast as possible.

Even though there are a few more quality issues to deal with in terms of the mid-grade tools, the imports themselves have gone up in quality. I have a delta jointer from the early to mid 90s that came from taiwan. It's a total piece of garbage, not even up to what HF carries. I remember seeing a lot of the first wave of imported tools coming through TSC, et al, that was from china or taiwan - a lot of it not even usable when it was new. Most of that stuff is gone, and even if all of the import stuff isn't great, most of it is reasonably usable.

Grizzly tools are another example of something imported that's gotten better - the old ones were pretty rough and nasty.

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59Billy said:

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And unless I've guessed wrong about your age, 6th grade was a while before NYW.

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You could say that. Hey, I'll be the first to admit NYW rekindled my interest.

As to hand tools----"supply and demand" give me a break. Anyone watched what's happening now---less demand and prices continue to rise across the board. Anyway, I started to renew my interest in hand tools, both from articles and watching Roy Underhill. Considering there was no power cord, prices were high and frankly it's hard to recommend to a newbee that he/she start off with hand tools, as many of us have, when it costs so much.

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Dave

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daveferg said:

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59Billy said:

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And unless I've guessed wrong about your age, 6th grade was a while before NYW.

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You could say that. Hey, I'll be the first to admit NYW rekindled my interest.

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I started back to school about the same time NYW debuted. Working all day and going to college at night, I didn't have much time for TV or woodworking, let alone woodworking TV shows.

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