lift mechanic
Member
Registered: 04/14/06
Posts: 225
Loc: Mammoth Lakes, California
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I am retiring next summer and am in the process of designing my dream shop. I will have a 48" crawl space under the shop, 36 x 52 with a 10' ceiling.
My thoughts are to run the dust collector and power for the floor and in some kind of opening hatch to connect the DC and power. I don't like having the machine power cords and DC connections to trip over. Mainly I will have the table saw, jointer, and planer towards the center of the shop. The other machines around the wall space. Any thoughts or ideas ? Thanks Mark
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I don't understand it
I've cut it twice
And it is still too short
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fall
Member
Registered: 11/25/05
Posts: 1083
Loc: Mich
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Is it going to be a wood floor or cement?
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Big Dave
Honored Veteran
Registered: 08/08/01
Posts: 4640
Loc: Post Falls, ID
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I think that's best way to go, Mark!
The fact that you'll have a crawl space allows you all the flexibility you'll need in locating tools. 
Dave
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"One should respect public opinion insofar as is necessary to avoid starvation and keep out of prison, but anything that goes beyond this is voluntary submission to an unnecessary tyrany, and is likely to interfere with happiness in all kinds of ways."
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lift mechanic
Member
Registered: 04/14/06
Posts: 225
Loc: Mammoth Lakes, California
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The floor will be engineered floor joist 16" oc with 3/4" plywood. I am thinking about building / buying, and putting a box between joist under the floor to hold the DC and 220 vac plug. I want to be able to move the machines in case I have to work on a vehicle.
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I don't understand it
I've cut it twice
And it is still too short
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Rick F
Member formerly Jokerbird
Registered: 05/28/08
Posts: 4930
Loc: Vancouver Island Canada
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Working on the same design right now .. We are selling this house and going to build a new one with a shop off the garage..
I was planning 2x10 SPF 12" OC with about 9 foot spans.
Think of running compressed air lines under the floor as well ..
Also consider a staircase down to the crawl, its a good place to store stuff .. Lots of room.. If you have a nice wide stair case ( 48" ) down to the crawl, you will probably use the space more ..
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Swan l
Member
Registered: 10/08/04
Posts: 762
Loc: Seattle area WA USA
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lift mechanic said:
The floor will be engineered floor joist 16" oc with 3/4" plywood. I am thinking about building / buying, and putting a box between joist under the floor to hold the DC and 220 vac plug. I want to be able to move the machines in case I have to work on a vehicle.
I would be careful with bringing ( vehicles ) over a 3/4" floor.
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Semper Fi
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lift mechanic
Member
Registered: 04/14/06
Posts: 225
Loc: Mammoth Lakes, California
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I thought about the weight of my diesel 1 ton truck. I was planning on running a beam under the floor where the tires would ride for extra support. I think the engineered joist would support the truck if supported well. Maybe blocking between the joists as well.
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I don't understand it
I've cut it twice
And it is still too short
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Mr_Mike
Rocketeer
Registered: 03/02/03
Posts: 20189
Loc: So Cal, USA
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lift mechanic said:
I thought about the weight of my diesel 1 ton truck. I was planning on running a beam under the floor where the tires would ride for extra support. I think the engineered joist would support the truck if supported well. Maybe blocking between the joists as well.
I would ask the truss manufacturer if it would be allowed, and if so, how.
On my I-joist house, the floor deck is 1 1/8" plywood. Much nicer than 3/4" decking.
If your going 4 feet, how much extra to go 9 feet and make a basement?
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Rocket Science is more fun when you actually have rockets.
"The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people, it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government." -- Patrick Henry
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mobilepaul
Member
Registered: 04/20/10
Posts: 250
Loc: Alabama
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I had a long conversation with Bill Pentz (the guy that designed the cyclone that several vendors use including and mainly the clear-vue) a few weeks back and his recommendation is to always put the DC outside of the shop, in a small room, if you have that ability. It's always the super fine dust you cannot capture in the filters or bags. Putting it outside would eliminate that issue... Sounds like you have the ability to do just that if you are designing from the ground up. He also recommends using 6" pipe as close to the tool as you can get it.
here is his informative website for any that have not seen it:
http://billpentz.com/woodworking/cyclone/index.cfm
Paul
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whitedogone
Member
Registered: 07/13/03
Posts: 953
Loc: central IL
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Google "Used Raised Access Floors"
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Building Inspector
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Rick F
Member formerly Jokerbird
Registered: 05/28/08
Posts: 4930
Loc: Vancouver Island Canada
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The DC outside is an issue in cold climates.. Its amazing how fast a 3hp - 5hp dust collector can suck all the warm air out of a building ..
If your in Arizona.. Go for it .. In Canada, heating a shop is expensive enough in the winter.
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MichaelMouse
Member
Registered: 05/17/05
Posts: 8111
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I'd put the whole thing in the remote corner next to the wood rack. I want any air I've paid to warm or cool to stay with me. The ducts belong under the floor, but you want to plan them with the idea that something will get stuck somewhere that you must get out. Cleanouts at corners, perhaps. Modified plumber's snake worked at the school. Fished through narrow, then pulled with the padded ply circle. Cursed the designer every time. Can't curse the kids, after all.
Putting it outside, if someone else is paying the heat/cool bill, is nice, but wouldn't containing all that "fine dust" lead to ... an explosion?
Mammoth Lakes - municipal retirement?
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Better to follow the leader than the pack. Less to step in.
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WilliamHodge
Member
Registered: 06/29/10
Posts: 124
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Dust collection on the ceiling allows you more freedom to move things around the shop. As you add machines, other machines need to move. Moving a hole in the floor a few inches is difficult. Shops evolve over time, they aren't static. Locking machines in place makes it hard to change.
WH
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sylvius
Member
Registered: 02/03/08
Posts: 891
Loc: Philly, PA
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WilliamHodge said:
Dust collection on the ceiling allows you more freedom to move things around the shop. As you add machines, other machines need to move. Moving a hole in the floor a few inches is difficult. Shops evolve over time, they aren't static. Locking machines in place makes it hard to change.
WH
+1 You can plan and think and plan some more and lay out all the DC drops perfectly and then the first time you use something you realize it's not in a good spot. If the ductwork is all in the floor it's going to be a real PITA to move the tools. You will inevitably end up with a bunch of above the floor connections between tool and floor drops, which is what you are trying to avoid in the first place. With 10' ceilings, should have plenty of space up there to run a main across the ceiling with several drops along the way and really easy to tie into anywhere you need. Also, are you considering putting just the ductwork down there or also the actual dust collector? Hopefully just the former or you will curse yourself every time the bag needs to be emptied (which is way more often then I would ever have thought when it comes to planing a few boards down a 1/4" or so...).
+1 also on the comment about the basement. A 48" crawlspace is not much space once the floor joists are in (particularly if you end up with blocking between the joists. I'm in my 30s and my back hurts thinking about crawling around down there. But if you can dig out a basement, you've essentially doubled your space for relatively little added cost (unless you are in a place where basements don't work well).
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MichaelMouse
Member
Registered: 05/17/05
Posts: 8111
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WilliamHodge said:
Dust collection on the ceiling allows you more freedom to move things around the shop. As you add machines, other machines need to move. Moving a hole in the floor a few inches is difficult. Shops evolve over time, they aren't static. Locking machines in place makes it hard to change.
Problem is, it has to overcome gravity to pull the stuff up. Means a bigger unit and being real careful not to leave a gate open where it can suck easy air.
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Better to follow the leader than the pack. Less to step in.
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lift mechanic
Member
Registered: 04/14/06
Posts: 225
Loc: Mammoth Lakes, California
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All good advice here. Basements don't work here water is a issue. I keep thinking over head DC then under the floor, good arguements both ways. Thank goodness I am in the planning stage. That is why I come to this site for ideas and thoughts. Keep them coming, all food for thought. Thanks, Mark
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I don't understand it
I've cut it twice
And it is still too short
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Rick F
Member formerly Jokerbird
Registered: 05/28/08
Posts: 4930
Loc: Vancouver Island Canada
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Hmm..
In my plans, I would still have overhead dust collection.
It would be a dual branch system .. one below the floor and one above.
Jointer, Table saw, Bandsaw .. all work naturally with the dust going down ..
Sanders and planers the dust would travel up ..
Picture a round template to make a 6" circle .. you want a hole in the floor for 6" dust pipe, lay it in the spot and put a spike through .. Then use a router to cut around the template and poof you have a new 6" hole ..
Make a bigger template and you can easily make patches to fix the floor if a machine moves.
There is a product called 1-1/8" Edge Gold .. Good in wet climates, With 12" on center 2x10 spanning 9 feet, you could park a car collection on the floor and never have a problem . . 3/4" plywood on 16" .. ( 14.5" ) centers will also be amazingly strong..
I am not really a fan of I - Joist for a shop, but I am sure they will work fine .. Its all in how they are designed..
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Mr_Mike
Rocketeer
Registered: 03/02/03
Posts: 20189
Loc: So Cal, USA
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Jokerbird said:
I am not really a fan of I - Joist for a shop, but I am sure they will work fine .. Its all in how they are designed..
Why is an I-joist not your preference? Pound for pound, stiffer than dimensional lumber. Each, of course, must be designed for the application.
I prefer concrete, all things considered, but it may no be practical.
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Rocket Science is more fun when you actually have rockets.
"The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people, it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government." -- Patrick Henry
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toolie
Member
Registered: 03/25/05
Posts: 1819
Loc: westchester cnty, NY
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if you can go under the floor, do it. check out the undisputed master of automated, neat shops (note, his DC network is under his shop floor):
http://videos.americanwoodworker.com/video/Automatic-Dust-Collection
alan goes by Alan in Little Washington" on this forum.
BTW, i noticed you mentioned you were considering beefing up the floor so it will support a vehicle. i also noticed you're in california. don't they have pretty tough codes there? wouldn't a new building require drawings/plans from a licensed professional of some kind? or this this going to be one of those "we don't need no stinkin' permit" jobs?
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there's a solution to every problem.....you just have to be willing to find it.
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JR1
Member
Registered: 09/09/10
Posts: 6529
Loc: Teller country, Co, USA
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Having owned a machine shop I am not a fan of under the floor anything. Given the space, which is good, you need to look at three things:
1. crap getting into outlets, I wound up extending them above the floor—vertically almost like wall outlets.
2. Sounds like enough space but how often are you going to move machines to access stuff?
3. Water and clean out! You need to plan for that upfront.
BTW how about the building code? Prince William County VA no longer allows power under the floor unless its in EMT or similar conduits.
IME you want power from the ceiling grid, under floor DC is likely OK.
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homo homini lupus
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lift mechanic
Member
Registered: 04/14/06
Posts: 225
Loc: Mammoth Lakes, California
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BTW, i noticed you mentioned you were considering beefing up the floor so it will support a vehicle. i also noticed you're in california. don't they have pretty tough codes there? wouldn't a new building require drawings/plans from a licensed professional of some kind? or this this going to be one of those "we don't need no stinkin' permit" jobs?
I was born and raised in Calif., but in order to retire I am moving to Montana. Land and living expenses are cheaper, especially compared to living in a resort town, Mammoth Lakes. The move is mind boggling, moving my shop 1000 miles not to mention all the stuff we, wife and I, have accumulated in the past 40 years. I can see a yard sale in the near future.
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I don't understand it
I've cut it twice
And it is still too short
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Rick F
Member formerly Jokerbird
Registered: 05/28/08
Posts: 4930
Loc: Vancouver Island Canada
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I have seen so many I joist floors that bounce like crazy ..
The product itself is great .. The problem is always the price thing..
A designer can design a floor that costs $4000 and bounces like a trampoline .. or a $5000 floor that you could drive a cement truck across..
The consumer buys on price, is unhappy, and finds out there is little he can do without spending a pile of money.
I have also seen lots of I joist floors that squeak .. Most squeaks are hangers and then fasteners..
Nothing wrong with I - Joist when installed and designed right .. but 2x10 when designed and installed right works pretty darn good too .
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toolie
Member
Registered: 03/25/05
Posts: 1819
Loc: westchester cnty, NY
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so are the codes less stringent or less enforced in montana?
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there's a solution to every problem.....you just have to be willing to find it.
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Robert Adams
Member
Registered: 12/16/04
Posts: 2678
Loc: Fort Worth
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Jokerbird said:
The DC outside is an issue in cold climates.. Its amazing how fast a 3hp - 5hp dust collector can suck all the warm air out of a building ..
If your in Arizona.. Go for it .. In Canada, heating a shop is expensive enough in the winter.
Same deal if you have to cool a shop. Actually worse as it costs more to cool a shop than ti heat it. Figure blowing 1500 CFM of air out of the shop and then it sucking in 1500cfm of 100*-111* air.... Basically you will need to double to triple the size of your AC to try and make up for that(maybe more). And thats a high end roll around DC. A cyclone is going to pull even more air out of there. And you will have to either have a very leaky building already or supply a very large make up air in the wall meaning big hole in the wall to let that very hot or cold air in.
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kompera
Member
Registered: 01/05/09
Posts: 2608
Loc: Boston, MA
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Here's a thought.
Put your DC overhead but do an inline separator (vortex, Thein, whatever) at work-floor level.
No need to lift chips 8', and you get all the benefits of placing it overhead.
You'll only need to empty the canister/bag once in a blue moon as 99% of your dust/chips will be on the work-floor level.
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"The things I make may be for others, but how I make them is for me." -Tony Konovaloff
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Mr_Mike
Rocketeer
Registered: 03/02/03
Posts: 20189
Loc: So Cal, USA
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Jokerbird said:
I have seen so many I joist floors that bounce like crazy ..
The product itself is great .. The problem is always the price thing..
A designer can design a floor that costs $4000 and bounces like a trampoline .. or a $5000 floor that you could drive a cement truck across..
The consumer buys on price, is unhappy, and finds out there is little he can do without spending a pile of money.
I have also seen lots of I joist floors that squeak .. Most squeaks are hangers and then fasteners..
Nothing wrong with I - Joist when installed and designed right .. but 2x10 when designed and installed right works pretty darn good too .
I can tell you my home second deck is stiff enough for tile. No bounce at all and seems to be built to "normal" standards according to manufacturer span tables. I've seen plenty of 2x floors that flex too much. Its not the material, its how its used. 2x or I-joist or truss is fine. The advantage of the engineered materials is longer free span, which cuts down on interior supports. In the OPs case, it might be the difference of needing a center beam and support which would eat up any saving in using 2x material.
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Rocket Science is more fun when you actually have rockets.
"The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people, it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government." -- Patrick Henry
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lift mechanic
Member
Registered: 04/14/06
Posts: 225
Loc: Mammoth Lakes, California
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toolie said:
so are the codes less stringent or less enforced in montana?
I built a house for my daughter 2 years ago in Montana. The only inspection needed was an electrical inspection and the electrical had to be installed by a certified electrician. This is a very small rural area. No plans, no permits required no building inspections. It is probly different in the larger cities.
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I don't understand it
I've cut it twice
And it is still too short
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JR1
Member
Registered: 09/09/10
Posts: 6529
Loc: Teller country, Co, USA
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Actually I haven't been in No Va for about 20 years but in Arlington electrical could be done by a licensed electrician or by the homeowner. Either had to be inspected. My brother lives in rural Va. and has nominal inspection requirements. Here in rural Co I need to meet the NEC 2000 adopted by the county, if I were a farm or ranch I'd be exempt from any code or inspections.
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homo homini lupus
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Alan in little Washington
Member
Registered: 02/12/03
Posts: 813
Loc: Washington, North Carolina
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Well, since my name was brought up, I'll weigh in on the DC ducting and a few other topic-
I have a second story shop above my garage so it was easy and there was plenty of room to run the ducting along the garage ceiling. I punched through and added ports in the floor for the ts and jointer. All other ducting enters the shop behind a knee wall except for the bench mounted mitersaw which has a pickup in the base cabinet. Frankly everything is much neater, vertical runs are almost non-existant, and the main runs to the cyclone which is also in the garage are very straight with minimal bends. There is no ducting to block the ceiling lights. The in-floor ports have hinged lids so I can remove the flex and slide a machine over it if necessary. For in-floor electrical I built a recessed wood enclosure with a hinged lid also. It has an electrical junction box wired with two corded pigtail receptacles instead of a duplex outlet receptacle. That way I don't need to worry about getting dust in them. I also made the enclosure large enough so I can store the excess machine power cords there.
(These photos were taken before I converted my blast gates to autogates and moved them behind the knee walls and below the floor.)
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lift mechanic
Member
Registered: 04/14/06
Posts: 225
Loc: Mammoth Lakes, California
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Alan in little Washington, thanks for the pictures. This is what I was thinking about. seperating the DC and electrical make is a good idea. and making the electrical box big enough to house 2 cords, I like it.
Thanks to everyone for there input keep the ideas flowing. Mark
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I don't understand it
I've cut it twice
And it is still too short
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