Cyclones - what am I missing?
#11
I am looking at upgrading to a nice cyclone.

Looking around, it looks like there is pretty much only one magazine to have tested these things, which is the WOOD magazine test.

Everyone and their brother who likes clearvue complains that the magazine must have done something wrong because they say "the CV1800LH returned more than twenty times as much fine dust to the shop as the Oneida Cyclone that topped the previous testing", and clearly, that can't be right, so they must have done something wrong in assembly, etc.

So, looking at the two cyclones in question, the CV1800LH uses a MERV15 9B300NANO filter from wynn (it really uses two of them, but it's not the case that you necessarily get better filtration by stacking filters. You get lower static pressure).
The MERV15 value means it's 84%-90% efficient at 0.3micron-1.0 micron particles.

The Oneida V-3000 uses a MERV16+ GE filter with "99.97% of particles captured down to 0.3 micron in size" (which is the HEPA standard).


The MERV and HEPA values are reported at initial loading (which is why the wynn and CV web page says the filter is 99.99% efficient at 0.5 micron particles. One value is at initial loading, one value is with 1.5 lbs of dust in the filter. See the 4th image, which is a table for the nano media, on http://wynnenv.com/filter-efficiency/
I can't direct link it because their CDN expires the image.
The numbers across the top are static pressure. Note, however, that the 0.5 micron size is going to reach 99.9% well before the 0.3 micron size does).

More to the point, let's be generous and call the wynn filter merv16, and say it's 95% efficient at 0.3 micron particles, because even though it really only starts out at 79% efficient at that size, it *very quickly* gets to 94.3% efficiency according to the table (meanwhile, our GE filter media over there is already at higher efficiency).

Great, so let's do some math.

We allow 100 million 0.3 micron size particles into the collector, and through the filter.

How many come back out of the thing?

Our wynn filter:

>>> 100000000-(100000000*0.95)
5000000.0

Our GE filter:
>>> 100000000-(100000000*0.9997)
30000.0

Whoops, so yeah, it looks like we got 5 million particles of dust back out of the wynn filter, 30000 back out of the GE filter. This is after first loading (the numbers are *much* worse for initial loading, but they always are).

This is 166 times as much dust back out of the clearvue
Even if we go with 0.5 micron sized particles, we get 100 times as much dust back out of the clearvue (96.8% vs 99.97%)

Eventually, yeah, it looks like the Wynn filter gets to 99.9%+, and then they both compare well from that point forward.

But i'm kind of stumped why people think the wood results make no sense. It looks like pretty simple application of "the oneida GE filtration media happen to start with higher efficiency", and it is going to take a while to get the Wynn filters to the same efficiency[1]

What am i missing?

[1] Not a knock on wynn of course, they will happily sell you HEPA filters or *whatever*. it's just what happens to be on the clearvue. In fact, I love Wynn, i've bought a bunch of their cartridge filters over the years.
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#12
Vent outside and you can save your brain cells for actual woodworking.
They told me anybody could do it, but I showed them.
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#13
Are you sure your jointer and TS are aligned to .0001 of perfection?

For me a dust collector isnt to collect every particle in the room. Its to collect the large volume of chips. I have an ambient air filter for airbore particles....which are ALWAYS going to have since its IMPOSSIBLE to collect everything at the cut.

So get a filter box.....and dont worry about the microscopic math.

Once Favre hangs it up though, it years of cellar dwelling for the Pack. (Geoff 12-18-07)  



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#14
"Are you sure your jointer and TS are aligned to .0001 of perfection? "

Actually, yes

I needed the equipment to realign the cnc machine axes, so while i had it out, i aligned the jointer and table saw
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#15
I wouldn't agonize over the test results. It's kind of like saying when you play golf in a thunderstorm, your chances of getting hit by lightning are 10x worse than if you don't. But your chances of getting hit while playing in the rain are pretty minute to begin with. Both dust collectors - even if the test results are accurate - do a great job of collecting dust. Get whichever one you want.
Still Learning,

Allan Hill
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#16
The fellows doing the Wood test (which was only done on the CV after some reader complaints about it's omission) described a lot of leaks and other problems with the CV. Their entire review did not jive with most owner's experiences, which led to the dismissal of the results. It's been some time, but i did read both the original reviews as well as the follow up. It did strike me the had an axe to grind with CV, but that's not based on any facts. Someone else here said, take reviews with a grain of salt. Let me ask, has this influenced your decision? I have an Oneida I'm thoroughly unhappy with, and wish all the world I had went with the CV instead. But that's my opinion, and most Oneida owners disagree with me on that cyclones shortcomings. Just the way things are.
I started with absolutely nothing. Now, thanks to years of hard work, careful planning, and perseverance, I find I still have most of it left.
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#17
One of the big things I would look for when buying a cyclone is one that incorporates some type of filter cleaner. My old cyclone didn't have one and cleaning the filter was a huge PITA. This lead to me letting it go to long and giving up a lot of suction. My new system has a flapper system to clean the filters. Every time I empty the drum I spin it until the fine dust stops falling out and I always have good suction. There are quite a few really nice machines out there with this option. Probably the most bang for your buck are the JDS models which both have auto clean functions.
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#18
David G said:


Vent outside and you can save your brain cells for actual woodworking.






Ed
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#19
I went with the clearvue and have been impressed. If you want data, try this site : http://billpentz.com//woodworking/cyclon...lectricity
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#20
packerguy® said:



So get a filter box.....and dont worry about the microscopic math.




Be sure to mount that on the ceiling, so you will be between it and the source of dust. Makes sure you get first dibs. It's there to help the shop go farther between cleanings, not for your nose.

Wear a mask if you're paranoid or a production shop. Some woods are so loaded with oils and such that you'll want charcoal cartridges to keep them from initiating allergic reactions from vaporized insecticides.
Better to follow the leader than the pack. Less to step in.
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