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geek2me said:
I think you meant "the only saw on my list...". I suspect many would agree that the Bosch with the safety system is a much better option than SawStop - probably why SawStop is so concerned. Given their much, much higher price they are already having sales issues, and the emergence of a technologically superior option at a much lower price could easily put them out of business.
[blockquote]geek2me said:
Geek. Do you have any facts by which to substantiate your conclusion? It is contrary to my understanding.
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geek2me said:
[blockquote]Tapper said:
I was speaking primarily about 3 HP cabinet saws. In that arena, aside from Grizzly, SS is very competitive price-wise.
A quick search:
PM2000 $3,000
Unisaw $2,600
SS PCS $2,730
SS Ind $3,900
Seems a little unfair to exclude the Grizzly, but OK. That leaves us with your "apple to apple" comparison of: PM2000 $3,000 Unisaw $2,600 SS Ind $3,900 so it seems the SS is much higher in cost, as others have noted, based on your research. Quote:
Also of course, SS is the only saw with the accident preventing safety brake - you'll have to decide how much that's worth to you; I did.
I think you meant "the only saw on my list...". I suspect many would agree that the Bosch with the safety system is a much better option than SawStop - probably why SawStop is so concerned. Given their much, much higher price they are already having sales issues, and the emergence of a technologically superior option at a much lower price could easily put them out of business.
[/blockquote] OK "geek", here we go! First, you conveniently left out the SS PCS - just in case you haven't figured it out yet, PCS stands for "Professional Cabinet Saw." I have been talking primarily about cabinet saws. The PCS compares 1 to 1 with the other U.S. topline cabinet saws. 3 HP, same style fence (Bies) with a little smaller table than some of the others, but a cabinet saw all the same. The ICS is a much larger, heavy duty cabinet saw meant for a commercial environment. It comes in up 7.5 HP versions. So the comparison is very much valid. Again, when you add in the safety feature, it tips the scales for many, price being a very small factor. I doubt anyone knows whether the Bosch safety system is better. It just came out in their jobsite version and has yet to be fully tested/vetted by customers. SS has been out 10+ years and has always gotten rave reviews from WW mags on the safety device, build quality and performance. Since SS is a private company, current and cumulative sales figures are difficult to come by, however Mr. Gass has said the company is profitable. We'll see how the lawsuits shake out. The powertool companies that banded together in an attempt to string him out until his patents expire may have the staying power to do just that. If so, it will be just another example of the little guy getting squeezed. You're right about one thing - It is the only table saw on my list. I have one and will always have one - YMMV. Doug
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PM2000 3HP with 30" fence shipping weight is 698 lbs.
SawStop 3HP Industrial with 36" fence is 635 lbs.
SawStop 3HP Professional with 36" fence is 426 lbs.
I'd say the SS PCS series is a step down from the Powermatic in terms of construction. Even if you assume the weight of the shipping containers for SS is 50 lbs, it's still 200 lbs more than a SS PCS. And the SS has 6" more fence length, so the real weight difference is in the motor and trunnion.
Still Learning,
Allan Hill
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Did some research online and the PCS is not as heavy as the PM 2000 or the Unisaw. Further research indicated that it was just as sturdy and testimonials from others (including me) indicate no discernible vibration. Could be that newer, lighter materials are just as strong, along with excellent design.
In any event, I still think the SS PCS is comparable to the others in quality, albeit it a little smaller footprint and not quite as heavy. I had the previous generation Unisaw before buying this PCS and I can see no difference in any of the measurables that count.
Doug
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Tapper said:
First, you conveniently left out the SS PCS - just in case you haven't figured it out yet, PCS stands for "Professional Cabinet Saw."
That explains part of the confusion - I read "PCS" in the more conventional usage, as a contractor's saw. In reviewing the SawStop site, I do see that they re-define "PCS" in this way. Quote:
I have been talking primarily about cabinet saws.
It appeared you were including both cabinet and contractor saws - that's the comparison issue to which I responded. I see now that is not what you maent. Quote:
I doubt anyone knows whether the Bosch safety system is better.
Easily discerned from reading their patent as well as brochures on the product. Subjectively depends on what one considers "better" though. IMHO, lower operating cost and faster response make it "better". Quote:
SS has been out 10+ years and has always gotten rave reviews from WW mags on the safety device, build quality and performance.
As long as we are defining terminology, let's remember that "SS" refers to ShopSmith and has for many decades. I have seen various reviews of the SawStop products, but have not seen any "rave" reviews. Usually the reviews are more along the lines of "reasonable product, but....". If you have a specific "rave" review in mind, please share that. Quote:
If so, it will be just another example of the little guy getting squeezed.
Goodness, no. Normal market competition is not "the little guy getting squeezed". Gass brought this on himself by unfairly seeking to limit competition through legal harassment. It's possible but seems unlikely that Gass's "big bully" techniques will negatively impact the "little guys" like Bosch.
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Bill Lyman said:
Do you have any facts by which to substantiate your conclusion?
Which conclusion? That the Bosch system has a lower operating cost and faster operation? If so, the patent leads to that conclusion, so the patent is the support for that fact.
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AHill said:
I'd say the SS PCS series is a step down from the Powermatic in terms of construction. Even if you assume the weight of the shipping containers for SS is 50 lbs, it's still 200 lbs more than a SS PCS. And the SS has 6" more fence length, so the real weight difference is in the motor and trunnion.
I'm not convinced weight alone correlates to quality - aluminum saws such as the Inca are much lighter and higher precision, for example. It's cheap to add weight - but increasing quality has a higher cost.
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geek2me said:
[blockquote]AHill said:
I'd say the SS PCS series is a step down from the Powermatic in terms of construction. Even if you assume the weight of the shipping containers for SS is 50 lbs, it's still 200 lbs more than a SS PCS. And the SS has 6" more fence length, so the real weight difference is in the motor and trunnion.
I'm not convinced weight alone correlates to quality - aluminum saws such as the Inca are much lighter and higher precision, for example. It's cheap to add weight - but increasing quality has a higher cost.
[/blockquote] I did not say quality. I said construction, meaning that from a structural strength and durability perspective, the additional weight usually translates to using more robust components. It is easy to use the word "Professional" when marketing. SawStop substitutes the "professional" t-glide fence for their professional series vs. the "industrial" t-glide fence for their industrial series. The size of the cast iron table top alone doesn't justify a $1000 difference between their professional series and their industrial series saws. SawStop even says that the difference is mainly weight ("200+ more pounds of Iron and Steel for heavy duty cycles, maximum stability and ultimate precision"), comprised of a larger and thicker cast iron table top, thicker gauge steel cabinet, larger trunnion, bigger handwheels, extra access panel, and a longer warranty on the motor. The "Professional" series warranty is 2 years. The Industrial series warranty is also 2 years, but 5 years for the motor. My PM2000 warranty was 5 years for everything. Apples to apples for a cabinet is PM2000 vs. the SS Industrial cabinet saw. I am not bashing SawStop quality. They make a very high quality saw. I had the option to get a SawStop. The price difference was too big to swallow. There are a lot more options now with SawStop. Buyers need to be informed on what the difference are between each SS series.
Still Learning,
Allan Hill
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The sky is blue.
RD
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"Boy could I have used those pocket screws!" ---Duncan Phyfe
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geek2me said:
[blockquote]Tapper said:
First, you conveniently left out the SS PCS - just in case you haven't figured it out yet, PCS stands for "Professional Cabinet Saw."
That explains part of the confusion - I read "PCS" in the more conventional usage, as a contractor's saw. In reviewing the SawStop site, I do see that they re-define "PCS" in this way. Quote:
I have been talking primarily about cabinet saws.
It appeared you were including both cabinet and contractor saws - that's the comparison issue to which I responded. I see now that is not what you maent. Quote:
I doubt anyone knows whether the Bosch safety system is better.
Easily discerned from reading their patent as well as brochures on the product. Subjectively depends on what one considers "better" though. IMHO, lower operating cost and faster response make it "better". Quote:
SS has been out 10+ years and has always gotten rave reviews from WW mags on the safety device, build quality and performance.
As long as we are defining terminology, let's remember that "SS" refers to ShopSmith and has for many decades. I have seen various reviews of the SawStop products, but have not seen any "rave" reviews. Usually the reviews are more along the lines of "reasonable product, but....". If you have a specific "rave" review in mind, please share that. Quote:
If so, it will be just another example of the little guy getting squeezed.
Goodness, no. Normal market competition is not "the little guy getting squeezed". Gass brought this on himself by unfairly seeking to limit competition through legal harassment. It's possible but seems unlikely that Gass's "big bully" techniques will negatively impact the "little guys" like Bosch.
[/blockquote] Never mind. It's clear that we have completely different views on this product. Looks like you haven't been around here very long, but "SS" here pretty much means Sawstop - very little discussion about Shop Smith on these pages. If you haven't seen "rave" reviews about SS you haven't been paying attention. Same thing with the "little guy" getting squeezed. Gass didn't threaten ANYONE with lawsuits. After the large manufacturers turned him down flatly and then banded together against him for fear that they would be liable for past injuries caused by their products, he decided to just build the saw himself. Being a patent attorney, obviously he protected his invention. His claim is that they have infringed on his patent(s); that's where the lawsuit comes in. The courts will eventually decide. Gass is definitely the "little guy" in this scenario, i.e. he builds and sells far fewer saws that all the others. He NEVER attempted to limit competition; he felt that his invention was so significant that surely the other manufacturers would want to include it on their saws for a fee - not to be. He was very surprised when they demurred. If you're interested in the real details of this story, Google it online. There are several clearly written impartial articles that lay it out. My position has ALWAYS been that if you don't want a SS table saw, by all means DO NOT BUY ONE!!! However, for those that do, don't deride us for doing so. And just because you still don't like the fact that Gass went to the CPSC in an attempt to have it mandated because he felt that it was an order of magnitude of safety never seen in tablesaw safety theretofore, and would absolutely, positively prevent catastrophic injury, get over it. Of course he wanted to be compensated for his efforts - it's always been the American way. If you choose to read the story, until politics got involved, including pressure from the large machinery group, the board was inclined to approve his request, i.e. they also saw the unique value. There are testimonials online from hospital emergency room doctors who are advocates for its approval also. They've seen the worst of these 4,000+ amputations each year. Resistance to this invention is purely political. It works consistently doing what it said it would do and is moderately priced given the potential of paying for the alternative. This is factual, with no hyperbole whatsoever. Doug
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