Digging A Sump In A Stream

[crokett™]

I'm finally getting around to installing a small 12V pump in a stream for getting water to my daughter's goats. My current plan is to cut down a busted rubbermaid trash can I have and put that in as a sump in the stream. The water isn't very deep right now - a few inches at most. I want the trash can far enough down that I can dump 5-6" of gravel in the bottom. Do I need to dam the stream up? I'm hoping I can get the trash can in and start digging out the inside. I was also thinking I might need the pump operational to pump the water out of the trash can when I first put it in. After the trash can is set and the gravel is in it, I'd cut holes in the sides for the times when the water is low , this should keep water deep enough in the sump so it doesn't run dry.

[FS7]

The principles that apply to sump pumps, pond pumps, and basically any submerged pump still apply here.

First, and most importantly, you need to make sure that the pump stays submerged. Presumably, the creek never runs dry (or hasn't in 50 years or so), so that should be OK. If it *does* ever run dry, obviously this idea won't work. You say that it gets "low" but I'm not sure what that means.

Secondly, the level of sand and silt in the water must be considered. Home sumps usually are expected to pump clean water, so if there's a chance that the impeller can get clogged the pump will burn itself out quickly.

Last, assuming you have a constant source of water and you're sure it won't destroy itself from debris, you need to size the pump appropriately based on the distance you want to move water. Lots of home sumps are rated by the distance they can move water vertically and horizontally, with the limiting factor generally being vertical.

[tomsteve]

only thing i can say on this,crockett, is i hope ya look into local DEQ/DNR/corps of engineers laws about doing this. i know a man in northern mi that tapped into a stream exactly like your planning,cept it was for different critters, without a permit and DNR/DEQ/ corps of engineers( i cant believe they made it law in michigan that even a ditch is a navigable body of water)nailed him hard. how in the hell the DNR/DEQ found out about him doing that in BFE northern michigan in the middle of 150 acres of land that had been in the family for over 100 years ....who knows.
id hate to see you or your daughter get hit like he did.

[crokett™]

The stream hasn't ever run dry that we know of. In the middle of July it's gotten to 2 or 3" of water in it, but never completely dry. This pump isn't going to be automatic. My daughter will turn on the pump when she needs water, then turn it off when she's done.

I've already gone through the rigamarole with disturbing this stream when I had to bring power to my house across it when we built it. Basically, the county doesn't have it on a map so the state comes into play. The state didn't seem to care much.

[fredhargis]

I would think you need to keep the water away from your digging while you put in the sump, either damming the stream or using a coffer dam (mayeb just some 2x8's nailed together and stuck in the stream bed), or something.

[Roly]

Could you dig the pit off to the side of the stream, then place a pipe or create a ditch to the pit ?  Roly

[Herb G]

A 5 gal bucket with holes drilled in the sides of it will suffice nicely.
No need for a trash can.

[JosephP]

only thing i can say on this,crockett, is i hope ya look into local DEQ/DNR/corps of engineers laws about doing this. i know a man in northern mi that tapped into a stream exactly like your planning,cept it was for different critters, without a permit and DNR/DEQ/ corps of engineers( i cant believe they made it law in michigan that even a ditch is a navigable body of water)nailed him hard. how in the hell the DNR/DEQ found out about him doing that in BFE northern michigan in the middle of 150 acres of land that had been in the family for over 100 years ....who knows.
id hate to see you or your daughter get hit like he did.

I thought the same thing.  It is not the State...that is federal EPA designation WOTUS (waters of the United States).  The argument they make (not agreeing or disagreeing, just presenting - better topic for the basement) is that because that ditch flows into navigable waters, what you do there has a direct impact on those.  Only isolated bodies are not considered WOTUS (this is also the legal justification for wetlands protection...).

Ultimately, it is a US Army Corps of Engineers determination if you are going to be allowed to disturb a stream channel.  Others should be directing you to them...doesn't really matter what DNR thinks or does not think of it (well, it may, there could be other state laws that are more restrictive)

[crokett™]

Ultimately, it is a US Army Corps of Engineers determination if you are going to be allowed to disturb a stream channel.  Others should be directing you to them...doesn't really matter what DNR thinks or does not think of it (well, it may, there could be other state laws that are more restrictive)

I checked with the state and the Army Corps when I buried the conduit for the PoCo to pull utilities to get to my house. PoCo pulls service for free, but won't cross streams. I guess they don't want to deal with potential environmental issues.  Neither organization cared what I did. This stream is something I can step across, and doesn't appear to be on any maps.  I live in a county that's very particular about water, and it didn't care either. I started with my county, it referred me to the state who referred me to the Army Corps.

Fred, I was thinking about the coffer dam.  I was kinda hoping that whatever I use to create the sump I can just cut the bottom out of and sink far enough into the stream bed that I can then just dig out the inside, then pour gravel in there.  After that I'd cut or drill holes in the sides Or maybe cut them beforehand but wrap the outside in a plastic bag.

Thanks for the suggestion on the 5 gal bucket, I will use that instead.  It should be easier to sink.

[JosephP]

Good stuff.  Just don't want you getting in trouble, but you are already ahead of that!  I don't care one way or the other as doesn't sound like you are doing anything that will actually cause problems...