Which router plane? Veritas or Lie?
#31
  Re: Which router plane? Veritas or Lie? by ®smpr_fi_mac® (A little birdie told...)
Hey, so, instead of arguing about who has the moral high ground here, let's talk planes.

Because, honestly, nobody cares. And nobody is gonna change.
Semper fi,
Brad

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#32
  Re: RE: Which router plane? Veritas or Lie? by Handplanesandmore (The economic outcome...)
(11-09-2017, 11:49 AM)Handplanesandmore Wrote: The economic outcome is the same whether a woodworker gets "the blessing" or not from a vendor's rep: The returned tool (LN or Veritas) can not be sold at its full price. There is no free lunch and in the end the regular customers like me will pay a price for such loss of profit.

The generous return policy at Veritas or LN is not meant for trying tools out; one can do that at their roadshows or stores.

Simon

If there is a brick and mortar shop nearby--in my case, 15 miles of hell, for a few odds--and I can try a tool there--then fine. I don't know how LV handles their physical "stores", but I must cross an international border and two cities of hell traffic to see one. LN are 3000 miles away. Occasionally, LN visits the City from Hell and sets up a road show in the worst part. I need an inheritance of thousands of dollars to be tempted to visit any of the Carrot Traps that I am offered. 

If I am forced to "buy to see", then return, the manufacturer must understand those economics. They're stupid not to. Anyone who thinks otherwise is a lower class of stupid. It's my money and no apologies to the rich dudes who throw their money away for silly notions.
Bruce
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#33
  Re: RE: Which router plane? Veritas or Lie? by hbmcc ([quote='Handplanesan...)
(11-09-2017, 02:26 PM)hbmcc Wrote: If I am forced to "buy to see", then return, the manufacturer must understand those economics. They're stupid not to. Anyone who thinks otherwise is a lower class of stupid. It's my money and no apologies to the rich dudes who throw their money away for silly notions.

I think high end tool manufacturers fully understand the economics of their liberal return policies, and for every person who returns a tool after a "try and buy" purchase, I'd guess 15 or more were fully satisfied with their choice.  As someone else opined that returned tools could not be resold as new, I'd have to disagree; if the tool is as new when returned, a little buffing, or replacement (ie, scuffed wood handle) is no biggie.  While I've never returned a tool to LV or LN, having been very satisfied with all of my purchases, I am comforted by their unequivocal promise to stand behind each tool sale, with a smile and no questions.  I don't think that many take advantage of the return or warranty policies of these companies, and if they do, its a single digit percentage of overall sales.  A valid business model that may not work with all consumer goods, but works with woodworking tools.
Elvem ipsum etiam vivere
No Evaporust was used on these tools.
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#34
  Re: Which router plane? Veritas or Lie? by ®smpr_fi_mac® (A little birdie told...)
Yes, I am rich by the standards of some of you but I am not stupid. The unwise ones are those who don't do their research before they buy and think they are smart when they abuse a vendor or its "liberal" refund policy.

It is the same as thinking theft is a victimless crime. A $5 toy stolen by one customer at Toys r Us is nothing when you have 1000 happy buyers who pay full prices, right?

Unless an official return policy says: Try and return, I don't accept any argument/excuse that it is fine to abuse it because you can't go to one of their stores physically.

Not being "rich" is also not a justification for abusing an in-good-faith return policy. Don't take up woodworking at all if you can't afford the time to do research and buy a decent tool without hurting others' (vendors, me, other customers who play fair, etc.) interests. Take up reading as a hobby; it is totally affordable. I got my last haul of books at a garage sale for just $5 that would satisfy my reading interest for at least a month.

I know no vendors -- large or small -- would come on here to say "Don't buy just for trying." But as a "rich" customer, I proudly come here to say that for myself and for anyone who agrees with me.

In the old days, I could return something with ease and got back cash. Now, most retailers require proof of purchase, within 30 days, original packaging, refund in store credit, etc. Why? Food for thought for those of you who can still enjoy the "liberal" return policy. Some vendors include free return shipping. Is that really free? It is a business cost you and I are paying in every other regular transaction.

Call me rich, stupid or anything. I just feel good that I am not the one who abuses a good (very few remaining) return policy. And I don't apologize for being right -- morally or financially.
Simon
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#35
  Re: Which router plane? Veritas or Lie? by ®smpr_fi_mac® (A little birdie told...)
Smpr_

You may not care, I do.

If you don't like to talk about it, fine but I will do so whenever I can.

Simon
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#36
  Re: Which router plane? Veritas or Lie? by ®smpr_fi_mac® (A little birdie told...)
Hey, if you want to proselytize your morality, I can't stop you from posting.

But please do it in another thread.
Semper fi,
Brad

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#37
  Re: Which router plane? Veritas or Lie? by ®smpr_fi_mac® (A little birdie told...)
I can do it wherever I want as long as it is part of a discussion in the thread; you started the thread but you don't own it, do you? I did not force you or anyone to read my posts.

Time to get into my shop...will come back whenever I feel like to do so.

Simon
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#38
  Re: Which router plane? Veritas or Lie? by ®smpr_fi_mac® (A little birdie told...)
Smpr (hope that name is acceptable) you should be happy with either LVs or LNs hand routers. I have neither, but have studied both and do have a preference. Not being computer parts, or an AC switch that are off the shelf items, only you can determine what tool works the best for you, even if it means a hand comparison. At least you probably don't need to worry about buying on-line what thousands have pawed through at a store display.

Hope I didn't proselytize.
Bruce
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#39
  Re: RE: Which router plane? Veritas or Lie? by hbmcc ([quote='Handplanesan...)
(11-09-2017, 02:26 PM)hbmcc Wrote: If I am forced to "buy to see", then return, the manufacturer must understand those economics. They're stupid not to. Anyone who thinks otherwise is a lower class of stupid. It's my money and no apologies to the rich dudes who throw their money away for silly notions.

Wow.
Still Learning,

Allan Hill
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#40
  Re: Which router plane? Veritas or Lie? by ®smpr_fi_mac® (A little birdie told...)
I'm partial to my Stanley 71 1/2, patented March 4, 1884.  Works like a charm.


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