Anyone know about "water source" heat pumps?
#11
  
We have a creek on our farm not far from where I've built my shop ("The Roost" Laugh )  It's never frozen over and is pretty cool in the summer.

I've wondered about just pumping water from it through a car radiator (and back to the creek) to cool the shop.

But if I get that much set up how much more trouble and expense would it be to hook up a heat pump for heating?

But we're in a moderate climate so where is the "break even" point with using a high efficiency air/air unit?

Any experience?

Might set up the water system for now and look into heating later.

I will have a wood stove installed (got a home-made one I heated our house with years ago) but something I don't have to mess with would be nice.
"Truth is a highway leading to freedom"  --Kris Kristofferson

Wild Turkey
We may see the writing on the wall, but all we do is criticize the handwriting.
(joined 10/1999)
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#12
  Re: Anyone know about "water source" heat pumps? by Wild Turkey (We have a creek on o...)
I'd say forget the radiator trick. You might need 20 radiators.

What temp is the water?
What will the temp of the water be by the time it reaches the radiator?
Will you be able to get at least a 18* change in temp entering and exiting the radiator (delta T)?
How much volume would it take to do this?
How fast should the water be pumped?
How much air flow to maintain the radiators temp?
What sized pipes would be needed?
How would you insulate them?
Do you need humidity removal?
Just lowering the temp may squeeze the water out of the air and on your tools. Winkgrin

Seek a free estimate to install a real system from a pro. Then maybe get a window shaker.?
"There are no strangers- only friends I haven't met.
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#13
  Re: Anyone know about "water source" heat pumps? by Wild Turkey (We have a creek on o...)
Not sure how good your creek to shop cooling system will work. Not sure if these options make sense to you given the cost and I know nothing about them; just know they exist.
I use a window & ceiling fans for cooling never worried about heat for my shop.

Mini – Split AC or Heat Pump
http://www.pickhvac.com/ductless/

Simple window AC/Heat Pump might be all you need.
http://www.pickhvac.com/ductless/
Bill
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#14
  Re: Anyone know about "water source" heat pumps? by Wild Turkey (We have a creek on o...)
Yes, I'm looking at a mini-split but the "southern engineer" in me keeps thinking about that nice, cool creek.   Laugh Laugh
"Truth is a highway leading to freedom"  --Kris Kristofferson

Wild Turkey
We may see the writing on the wall, but all we do is criticize the handwriting.
(joined 10/1999)
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#15
  Re: Anyone know about "water source" heat pumps? by Wild Turkey (We have a creek on o...)
I am about to replace my well pump that I use for irrigation. I plan on running the water through a heat exchanger(made for the purpose) in the shop with a fan. I'm not sure what the exact water temp is but I have measured it in the 60s after running through a few hoses etc and consider the shop will be over 100* with the ac off. It will run whenever the well is running and if the well is running that means its warm enough that the shop will be hot. Its just taking advantage of the cold water to remove some heat from the shop instead of letting that nice lack of heat go to waste when it hits the yard. Might as well take a little heat from the shop on its way.

    Now there are water source heat pumps and they work very well but thats another can of worms. If I had a deep enough pond I would be using a system with a loop in the water. Going the water well method here is cost prohibitive as they start at @24 a foot here. You will never recoup the well drilling cost here.
       If you really want to get into DIY GSHP there are allot of knowledgeable guys at ecorennovator.com (spelling) that have designed and built their own systems from scratch and many are far and away superior to the commercial units when it comes to efficiency but with the expense of lots of enginerding to get it there.
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#16
  Re: Anyone know about "water source" heat pumps? by Wild Turkey (We have a creek on o...)
My father told me that he worked in a factory in the Bronx, NY in the late 1930s and they had a sprinkler on the roof of the building.  The sprinkler was set so that there was no accumulation of water, but rather it would evaporate upon contact with the roof.  It would drop the temperature in the factory 20 to 30 degrees depending upon the heat and humidity.

The problem with the system is that condensation would form on the interior of the ceiling causing moisture and its attendant damage.

If you are in an arid area, this can still be a good tactic.  Or you can turn it on and run the A.C.  The AC might be sufficient to dry out the room and the sprinkler will drop the temperature in a hurry.  Or just turn the sprinkler on for a few minutes while you are trying to cool off the room, and then turn it off.  Or run the sprinkler on a timer so that it only runs for 5 minutes every hour.  That would allow enough time for the AC to extract the humidity.

If you are in Phoenix, AZ this would work perfectly, though water might be in short supply.
No animals were injured or killed in the production of this post.
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#17
  Re: RE: Anyone know about "water source" heat pumps? by Cooler (My father told me th...)
(05-18-2018, 08:29 AM)Cooler Wrote: My father told me that he worked in a factory in the Bronx, NY in the late 1930s and they had a sprinkler on the roof of the building.  The sprinkler was set so that there was no accumulation of water, but rather it would evaporate upon contact with the roof.  It would drop the temperature in the factory 20 to 30 degrees depending upon the heat and humidity.

The problem with the system is that condensation would form on the interior of the ceiling causing moisture and its attendant damage.

If you are in an arid area, this can still be a good tactic.  Or you can turn it on and run the A.C.  The AC might be sufficient to dry out the room and the sprinkler will drop the temperature in a hurry.  Or just turn the sprinkler on for a few minutes while you are trying to cool off the room, and then turn it off.  Or run the sprinkler on a timer so that it only runs for 5 minutes every hour.  That would allow enough time for the AC to extract the humidity.

If you are in Phoenix, AZ this would work perfectly, though water might be in short supply.


            I have done this to my shop in past years and it will massively reduce the heat load. The issue is that you need very clean water to eliminate mineral buildup. There are allot of very large commercial buildings that use this system. It is much more efficient than using electricity for the same heat removal. There are a couple companies that sell commercial sized systems.
             I used micro sprinkler heads. They work very well. I would really like to do a system on the house because it works and like i said water is cheaper than electricity and it prolongs roofing life. No issue with interior humidity as the water wont cool the roof enough to cause condensation besides with the air temps at 95 to 115 and roofing temps way way above that the water boils off very quickly. I have seen some that use a timer to spray their roof every 10 minutes or so depending on air temp.

            Its very effective but unfortunately its a system that isn't used because some are more worried about a little water use than a huge savings in electricity and pollution.
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#18
  Re: Anyone know about "water source" heat pumps? by Wild Turkey (We have a creek on o...)
I built my own heat exchanger back in the 70's that had a coil in my fireplace and an a coil that I made a plenum and furnace fan worked really good in the winter
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#19
  Re: Anyone know about "water source" heat pumps? by Wild Turkey (We have a creek on o...)
When I was building houses we used water sourced heat pumps using pond water for bothe heat and cooling they worked pretty good as the bottom of the ponds stayed at about 50 degrees year round
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#20
  Re: Anyone know about "water source" heat pumps? by Wild Turkey (We have a creek on o...)
I have thought about trying an open loop water cooling system, but with ground water temp in Texas at close to 70 degrees I doubt it would work very well.

Now I’m wondering if I could improve the efficiency of a mini split by putting a water jacket around the compressor and running 70 degree water next to it when it was on?

That would more closely approximate a water source heat pump.

Duke
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