What happened to Wenzolff and Sons?
#31
  Re: RE: What happened to Wenzolff and Sons? by Pedder ([quote='Scoony' pid=...)
(08-08-2018, 05:10 PM)Pedder Wrote: I once straightend one of Marks's saws.... (not his fault.)
You can completly rebuild glued saws, too. Been there, don that.

Kinks in saw blades are not easy to repair.

Cheers
Pedder

Heat the back to loosen the epoxy to remove the back, however if a kink and not a bend, you may be better off getting a new saw plate (Blacky's Boy). I don't recall the maker's name but there are a few saws out there both through pinned and epoxied. Get a kink in one of those, you may be only able to salvage the handle.
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#32
  Re: RE: What happened to Wenzolff and Sons? by Pedder ([quote='Scoony' pid=...)
(08-08-2018, 05:10 PM)Pedder Wrote: I once straightend one of Marks's saws.... (not his fault.)
You can completly rebuild glued saws, too. Been there, don that.

Kinks in saw blades are not easy to repair.

Cheers
Pedder
Mark uses this information as a not-so-subtle pitch for his folded backs saws. which according to him can be worked back to straight by removing the back and reinstalling it gradually until the saw is straight.  I'm sure this oversimplifies the process description.  He states that a glued back saw is very difficult to straighten, requiring a new plate and back to make a repair.  

That said I'm perfectly content with the Lie-Nielsen back saws at $100.00 less cost. You could purchase a new plate and back and still be about even in cost with the Bad Axe saw.  I'm willing to take that risk.
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#33
  Re: RE: What happened to Wenzolff and Sons? by Tony Z ([quote='Pedder' pid=...)
(08-08-2018, 06:40 PM)Tony Z Wrote: Heat the back to loosen the epoxy to remove the back, however if a kink and not a bend, you may be better off getting a new saw plate (Blacky's Boy).  I don't recall the maker's name but there are a few saws out there both through pinned and epoxied.  Get a kink in one of those, you may be only able to salvage the handle.

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#34
  Re: What happened to Wenzolff and Sons? by Barry Johnson (Just curious really....)
(08-08-2018, 07:05 PM)Mike Brady Wrote: Mark uses this information as a not-so-subtle pitch for his folded backs saws. which according to him can be worked back to straight by removing the back and reinstalling it gradually until the saw is straight.  I'm sure this oversimplifies the process description.  He states that a glued back saw is very difficult to straighten, requiring a new plate and back to make a repair.  

Marks folded spines are done incredible well. They hold the blade much firmer than any of the Tyzacks, Disstons or Sprear & Jacksons, I worked on. Very close to glud spines.

But even at Marks Spines a blade slip, if the user abuses the saw.
The saw I repaired was not easy to repair, but it worked well.

Blades can't slip in glued spines. If you get a bow in a glued saw, there is a bow in the spine.
When I hav a bow in the blade, it happens in the making process. This saw willl never see a customer.
But I usually can use both, the blade and the spine. Working carfully helps.

Never understood why Cosman uses glue and pins.
Indepence Saws (Now Lie-Nielsen) are made for more than 30 years an I yet have to read about a failed spine.

Cheers
Pedder
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#35
  Re: What happened to Wenzolff and Sons? by Barry Johnson (Just curious really....)
The one saw I couldn't straighten out (never tried a glued back), as a very vintage (can't remember name, other than a Sheffield maker), he the back was like a sway back, with a downward curve in the middle. The downward curve imparted a curve the length of the saw plate. Tapping/moving different portions of the back had no effect on the blade. Finally removed the plate entirely, and once out of the back, it laid flat. Put it back in, and it was again curved.

Since the back had the makers mark on, I did not want to change it, so I touched up the blade, used it once or twice, then hung it on the wall with the rest of the semi-show saws. My take was the sway bend happened more than a century+ ago, by the maker, when he folded the steel for the back.
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#36
  Re: RE: What happened to Wenzolff and Sons? by Mike Brady (I think Tony is corr...)
(08-08-2018, 04:48 PM)Mike Brady Wrote: I think Tony is correct that glued-back saws can't be straightened......at least that is what Mark Harrell says.

This is one of the most humorous topics ever. This is exactly why sawmakers have to constantly adjust the backs on the saws. The idea of "tension" is completely false, IMO, if you created tension in a plate you would be forcing the plate into submission. If you believe this theory, use handsaws that have folded backs on them, by all means.

After I removed and replaced literally dozens of saw backs I soon realized that a back that is machined with a slot and uses epoxy to hold the blade just prevents the blade from moving at all. I have never had a problem to date, nor have I seen any issues that could not be repaired, and that goes for the rare case a slotted saw needed the plate replaced, and I have seen sawmakers do that easily. I have never had to yet myself as I have never had a single saw come apart or bend. Any tool can, but if you do something that bends the saw plate, the same bend will happen to a folded back.

Now, when people use the nomenclature, "tensioning a saw plate", this concept does make sense because what you are doing is moving the metal around to change the plate, this is similar to upsetting metal when you forge. Metal doesn't hold tension, however, there is really no concept for metal as there is for wood, although metal can and will change, it is nothing like wood, and doesn't move near what wood does. The grain structure can and will change, but very small amounts and nothing that will be detected in a woodworking tool.

Of course this is all subjective and everyone is welcome to subscribe to the theory that they believe in. I don't care for the fact that a folded back gets canted when you drop it off the bench. That's why they need to be repaired and <cough> "tensioned" back into shape.

I'm obviously opinionated on this, and welcome anyone else's opinion, because my opinion is one opinion for myself. Every woodworker should have their own opinion and I encourage each one of you to have your own.

Cheers,
Alan
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#37
  Re: RE: What happened to Wenzolff and Sons? by TraditionalToolworks (I was asking here no...)
(08-08-2018, 07:27 AM)TraditionalToolworks Wrote: I was asking here not long ago about Mike as I also noticed his saws had been removed from the Lee Valley site.

I sent Mike an email, but didn't get a reply, which prompted my previous reply here on Woodnet. I have 2 of Mikes earliest saws. Prior to him even putting a logo or name on them.

I hope he's doing ok, health is important. That's why woodworking is so important, it puts fiber in your diet. Uhoh

Cheers,
Alan

Oh, by the way Alan, WELCOME TO THE FORUM!!! Cool Cool Cool
Steve S.
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#38
  Re: RE: What happened to Wenzolff and Sons? by TraditionalToolworks ([quote='Mike Brady' ...)
(08-09-2018, 03:15 PM)TraditionalToolworks Wrote: This is one of the most humorous topics ever. This is exactly why sawmakers have to constantly adjust the backs on the saws. The idea of "tension" is completely false, IMO, if you created tension in a plate you would be forcing the plate into submission. If you believe this theory, use handsaws that have folded backs on them, by all means.
SNIP!!!
Hooray!!! Hooray for intelligence! ....
You know, I heard smashing a saw plate with a hammer will knock off all the rust.  Big Grin
And ... You know what else? You don't even need a saw to cut wood!  Raised  Or, is that cheese?
Now, just to give the OP his due, the topic digressed from his original question. I hung on hoping for more saw maker information. And then, the south easterly Bermuda Triangle breeze sprang up.....
Bruce
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#39
  Re: RE: What happened to Wenzolff and Sons? by Bibliophile 13 ([quote='TraditionalT...)
(08-09-2018, 05:00 PM)Bibliophile 13 Wrote: Oh, by the way Alan, WELCOME TO THE FORUM!!! Cool Cool Cool

Thanks Steve, but I did wear my welcome out in the past about a dozen or more years ago... Rolleyes 

It was on this forum I met Mike Wenzloff, he did become a good friend at one point. We've had dinner several times, I've visited his shop, he's just always been a down to earth and good person. He helped me to start making saws, and although his style is a bit different in how he approaches things, he makes great saws and he's the epitome of never blaming an inferior tool for a mistake. The fact he can make such quality saws for so many people over the years speaks volumes for him.

I've been involved more in metalworking over the past 7 or 8 years, but need to get back into woodworking as I just reached the final stages on getting a permit to build my own home. I kind of think of it as my next shop, literally I will use the walkout basement as the shop to build the home. Believe it or not, I use used mostly all hand tool to build the main floor out of log... Uhoh 

Cheers,
Alan
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#40
  Re: RE: What happened to Wenzolff and Sons? by hbmcc ([quote='TraditionalT...)
(08-09-2018, 07:29 PM)hbmcc Wrote: Hooray!!! Hooray for intelligence! ....
You know, I heard smashing a saw plate with a hammer will knock off all the rust.  Big Grin
And ... You know what else? You don't even need a saw to cut wood!  Raised  Or, is that cheese?
Now, just to give the OP his due, the topic digressed from his original question. I hung on hoping for more saw maker information. And then, the south easterly Bermuda Triangle breeze sprang up.....

We need to make one things really clear, I don't want this thread to take a sour spin...

There is absolutely nothing wrong with a folded back, I have dozens of saws with folded backs, some of my favorite vintage saws have folded backs on them...in fact, ALL of my vintage saws have folded backs, even the ones I'm not crazy about.

The first saw I made I used a Crown gent's saw, cut the handle off and made it as a Galootaclaus gift for a guy...I hope he still has it...I would laugh at it today, but it was the first handle I made. Since I have seen dozens of people use Crown gent saws and do the same, it's a good way to start teaching yourself how to make saws.

I have also discussed this topic with many sawmakers, and I just happen to feel that Peter Taran came up with a modern way to attach the plate to the spine, and it secures the plate and doesn't allow it to move. To me, that seems like a good thing.

I have way better and more tools than our forefathers...those guys would have built a house with a saw, a hammer, some marking tools, and away they go...I have more tools to build a cabinet than they did an entire home...it's worth thinking about...great craftsmen don't need a lot of tools.

This is to say, you can do beautiful work with some crappy Stanley made in China saw...or even a Disstton saw from the '60s with a .050" plate...the wood doesn't know the difference. I just happen to like good quality tools. I would rather use a saw that is 150 years old than I would one of those, which I consider saw shaped objects...(SSOs). Wink

And I love old Disstton dovetail saws, I would say those are the only ones I've considered myself a collector of. I haven't bought one in several years, but the 68/69/70/71. I love those old 68s with the ribbed handles, one of the first saws I used for cutting some dovetails...they had a folded back...I bought my first one from good 'ol Walt Quadratto...I sure hope he's still with us...I have a number of cool things I've bought from Brass City, he's a stand up man...same "mensch" league with Mike Wenzloff...Walt even sold me some metalworking tools when I first got interested in making tools. I was a musician in a past life so me and Walt got along well...

Cheers,
Alan
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