What happened to Wenzolff and Sons?
#41
  Re: What happened to Wenzolff and Sons? by Barry Johnson (Just curious really....)
I hope this doesn't fuel a war, but I was chortling so hard I had to post this.

First I apologize saying I had 2 Wenzloff saws. I actually have 3...the third one I use occasionally, but haven't used the dovetail pair in ages.

These saws are identical, aside from one being rip and the other being x-cut. I think the x-cut might be one tooth courser TPI. These are folded back handsaws made by Mike Wenzloff. They are not his first saws, a few others have these early saws, but these are pretty early...even I dropped on and it moved the back...I swear it wasn't on purpose. At the time it seemed like Mike thought I dropped it on purpose...Uhoh (let me assure you otherwise)

This is an old pic, like 10+ years old. If I'm not mistaken it's the rip saw that fell, the one on the left. Definitely the one on the left fell, but I remember it being the rip one. I had to personally fix it myself, ONLY because I'm so anal retentive I need to have both saws the same. I'm OCD about my tools... Yes 

Cheers,
Alan

   
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#42
  Re: RE: What happened to Wenzolff and Sons? by TraditionalToolworks ([quote='hbmcc' pid='...)
Sorry to have to tell you, but Walt passed away.  Think it was a couple years ago at this point.
Semper Fi,

Barry
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#43
  Re: RE: What happened to Wenzolff and Sons? by Barry Johnson (Sorry to have to tel...)
(08-09-2018, 11:06 PM)Barry Johnson Wrote: Sorry to have to tell you, but Walt passed away.  Think it was a couple years ago at this point.

Barry,

No problem, I will long remember him, and I have some really cool stuff I've bought from him over the years. He was always way more than fair for stuff I couldn't find easily...my 2 prized purchases from him are a Goodell Pratt bench mounted hand crank grinder and a Goodell Pratt polishing lathe. He was a one of a kind guy...

About 8 or 9 years ago he had a stroke or heart attack, but after he was back at it and in good spirits...eventually we all wear out...but lots of good memories for me with Walt, he brightened up the lives of thousands of woodworkers, IMO.

One thing good for Walt, because he knew the slippery slope better than any...and that was that Walt stayed away from metalworking...anyone that thinks woodworking is a slippery slope has most likely never found the metalworking slope...in fact, he did sell a couple dozen or so mixed bunch of measuring tools, dividers, micrometers, stuff like that...a few things he even tossed in for free to get rid of them...a wise man who knew how dangerous that metalworking slope was...I always told him if he found any more let me know, but he insisted he wasn't going to buy any... Oh, did I mention that was just about the time I was standing at the top of the metalworking slope??? Laugh

Come to think of it, Walt sold me a bunch of timberframe chisels and other tools when I was starting to build my log home. I still have and are some of what I used...

R.I.P. Walt! I will never forget you, and appreciate your friendship over the years...

Cheers,
Alan - stories of the cellar...err...seller I 'spose... Wink
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#44
  Re: What happened to Wenzolff and Sons? by Barry Johnson (Just curious really....)
Alan,

Good to see you here again. For the record, I'm not sure any of us were referring to a saw plate being in tension. To me, a folded back is another way of holding a saw plate. For one reason, or another, such as dropping the saw, the plate's position in the folded back can change and may also result in a curve in the plate.

Re-positioning the plate can help remove the bend, but the discussion on plates and backs was centered more on a kink in the plate, which is a whole different animal, and more than likely, nearly impossible to fix satisfactorily.

I believe the last we communicated was on a saw forum that I have lost track of! I built a few saws (never one with a back), and found the effort not quite as satisfying as using them!

T.
Waiting to grow up beyond being just a member
http://www.metaltech-pm.com
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#45
  Re: What happened to Wenzolff and Sons? by Barry Johnson (Just curious really....)
Just to clarify to the casual reader of this thread...

Tensioning a saw plate is not the same as putting a spine on a backsaw.  Folded, slotted, glued or not, a spine on a backsaw only adds stiffness to the blade, which is necessary because the plate is so thin.  Cutting on the push stroke using a backsaw plate without a spine will more than likely result in the blade buckling or bending.  

Tensioning a sawplate is a process of adding compressive stresses on the surface of a sawplate, usually done with a hammer.  It's normally done only on panel or full size saws, which have a much thicker plate than a backsaw.  Because tensioning a saw plate is somewhat of an art (well, really a difficult skill to get right), a sawmaker usually only tensioned the higher end saws in his line.  Disston didn't tension every saw out of the factory.  They only tensioned their higher end saws (e.g. a D-12).  Tensioning does slightly stiffen a saw plate.  I don't know that I've seen a huge difference between a tensioned and non-tensioned saw, but there's less tendency for a tensioned saw to vibrate when cutting.  Having a properly sharpened and set saw is far more important than having one that's tensioned.
Still Learning,

Allan Hill
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#46
  Re: RE: What happened to Wenzolff and Sons? by AHill (Just to clarify to t...)
(08-10-2018, 07:58 AM)AHill Wrote: Just to clarify to the casual reader of this thread...

Tensioning a saw plate is not the same as putting a spine on a backsaw.  Folded, slotted, glued or not, a spine on a backsaw only adds stiffness to the blade, which is necessary because the plate is so thin.  Cutting on the push stroke using a backsaw plate without a spine will more than likely result in the blade buckling or bending.  

Tensioning a sawplate is a process of adding compressive stresses on the surface of a sawplate, usually done with a hammer.  It's normally done only on panel or full size saws, which have a much thicker plate than a backsaw.  Because tensioning a saw plate is somewhat of an art (well, really a difficult skill to get right), a sawmaker usually only tensioned the higher end saws in his line.  Disston didn't tension every saw out of the factory.  They only tensioned their higher end saws (e.g. a D-12).  Tensioning does slightly stiffen a saw plate.  I don't know that I've seen a huge difference between a tensioned and non-tensioned saw, but there's less tendency for a tensioned saw to vibrate when cutting.  Having a properly sharpened and set saw is far more important than having one that's tensioned.

+1
BontzSawWorks.net
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#47
  Re: RE: What happened to Wenzolff and Sons? by RonB1957 ([quote='AHill' pid='...)
(08-11-2018, 02:33 AM)RonB1957 Wrote: +1
.........................
LIL
There's another way to "skin the cat" other than folding or slotting the spine....The brass backs can be epoxied to the blade.....I made one that way a number of years ago along with at least one more Woodnetter..If my memory serves, it was Kansas City Woodslayer, and he went one step farther..he also used brass machine screws to retain the "blade to back" connection..and he peened the brass screws over and filed them flush so as to make them almost invisible...I didn't "rivet" my brass and instead, relied on the epoxy to hold it..and after about ten years, it's still holding.....I used a new Deer Brand German "gent's saw" for my sacrificial lamb, but I reconfigured the teeth rake angle so it would cut correctly... It is my opinion that a 3/4" wide, 1/8" thick brass strip, epoxied 100% to the blade, adds more "stiffness" to the sides of the blade than a blade that is "pinched" into a slot that is slightly too narrow for it...If "stiffness" is what is desired, that can be achieved by making the blade thicker..but since each stroke has to remove more wood, the extra thickness makes it much harder to push...So a choice has to be made...thin blade= easy to push...thick blade stays stiffer without a back and can make a "through" cut ....There's no free lunch.... Crazy Big Grin


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#48
  Re: What happened to Wenzolff and Sons? by Barry Johnson (Just curious really....)
Here is another method of creating a saw back that I tried a couple of years ago. I had a couple of pieces of half-oval marine brass trim, so I cut it to length and machined it for screws. It works okay, though the marine brass is a bit soft and bends easily. It might be stiffer if it were epoxied to the plate, but then that would defeat the purpose of a removable spine.











Bob Page
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
In da U.P. of Michigan
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#49
  Re: RE: What happened to Wenzolff and Sons? by enjuneer (Here is another meth...)
(08-11-2018, 01:36 PM)enjuneer Wrote: Here is another method of creating a saw back that I tried a couple of years ago. I had a couple of pieces of half-oval marine brass trim, so I cut it to length and machined it for screws. It works okay, though the marine brass is a bit soft and bends easily. It might be stiffer if it were epoxied to the plate, but then that would defeat the purpose of a removable spine.












Makes for a very handsome saw! Nice job!
Waiting to grow up beyond being just a member
http://www.metaltech-pm.com
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#50
  Re: RE: What happened to Wenzolff and Sons? by Tony Z (Alan, Good to see...)
Good to see you here again.  For the record, I'm not sure any of us were referring to a saw plate being in tension.  To me, a folded back is another way of holding a saw plate.  For one reason, or another, such as dropping the saw, the plate's position in the folded back can change and may also result in a curve in the plate.]/quote]

Hi Tony, I often think about you when pondering the metalworking slope...I'm sure you buy your fair share of tooling in your business! Wink

I didn't mean to confuse the thread, I was commenting on Mike Brady's comment about BadAxe saying a slotted back couldn't have the plate straightened.

This is often referred to as "keep tension on the saw plate", as I have seen people mention. I don't buy into that part of the tensioning, and don't believe there is tension in the plate. If anything a slotted back prevents the plate from moving if the back moves.

(08-10-2018, 06:45 AM)Tony Z Wrote: Re-positioning the plate can help remove the bend, but the discussion on plates and backs was centered more on a kink in the plate, which is a whole different animal, and more than likely, nearly impossible to fix satisfactorily.

This is the part I agree with, although I referred to that as tensioning a plate, it's really upsetting metal to move it how you want. Esepcially large handsaw seem susceptible to such because they are so flexible.

(08-10-2018, 06:45 AM)Tony Z Wrote: I believe the last we communicated was on a saw forum that I have lost track of!  I built a few saws (never one with a back), and found the effort not quite as satisfying as using them!

Laugh

It's hard to get the process down, and does take some time. IMO, Ron Bontz makes some of the nicest looking saws, sorry to see he's not making them, or at least taking orders anymore. I saw Ron posted here, I've never met him but just think his saws are nice. Hi Ron! Smile

I like the laminated backs, and Vlad did some nice ones, AFAIK he was using it early on.

Alan
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