Finding elec. short????
#11
A rear wall on our lanai (added after house was built in 1994. We have owned for 3 years) has 2 outlets on one side of the door and 2 on the other side. All are dead (and disconnected for testing) All on 1 dead breaker. I replaced the breaker and it still trips.

At each corner of the lanai outside, is a conduit, coming out of the walkway slab and going into the wall. (to feed 2 of the outlets, I assume)

At the breaker box,  the feed wire (just 1) for these outlets goes into a conduit and into ground. Also going into this conduit, are 3 or 4 heavy wires, going to a sub panel in the barn.

With all outlets disconnected, the breaker still trips.

The conduit/wire apparently has a junction box under the concrete somewhere.  Not accessible = not to code, I assume. 
This conduit must also split off to the shop sub panel.

Being as the wires split, somewhere, I wouldn't be able to pull a new wire.


There is a concrete walkway, on the side and back of lanai. I'm thinking the conduit might be under the walkways. 

What would an electrician do? So I can do it.
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#12
(08-14-2018, 09:26 AM)Pirate Wrote: With all outlets disconnected, the breaker still trips.

Before I did anything else, I'd disconnect the load at the breaker and see if it trips.  It's a simple enough check to determine if there's a bad breaker.  After that, depending on how easy it was to do  I'd consider abandoning the existing wiring and pulling all or partial new.  I don't know if that would be easier than cutting concrete, etc to try and find a possibly buried junction box.   the electrician may have a tone generator or similar that would tell him where the short (if there is one) is.
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#13
I have a lamp post in my front yard.  I wanted the electrician to replace it.  He said it was not to code.  That 110 volt wires had to be buried 3 feet deep and mine are only about 10 or 12 inches deep.

So under the side walk only would work in my area if it were 3 feet under.  You will have to check local codes.
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#14
(08-14-2018, 09:26 AM)Pirate Wrote: What would an electrician do? 


Our electrician dug up where the wire entered the ground from the pole and where it entered the house. He said those are the 2 obvious places for a break to occur. When he found nothing, he said we needed to abandon the line and trench in new.
Mark

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#15
(08-14-2018, 09:26 AM)Pirate Wrote: A rear wall on our lanai (added after house was built in 1994. We have owned for 3 years) has 2 outlets on one side of the door and 2 on the other side. All are dead (and disconnected for testing) All on 1 dead breaker. I replaced the breaker and it still trips.

At each corner of the lanai outside, is a conduit, coming out of the walkway slab and going into the wall. (to feed 2 of the outlets, I assume)

At the breaker box,  the feed wire (just 1) for these outlets goes into a conduit and into ground. Also going into this conduit, are 3 or 4 heavy wires, going to a sub panel in the barn.

With all outlets disconnected, the breaker still trips.

The conduit/wire apparently has a junction box under the concrete somewhere.  Not accessible = not to code, I assume. 
This conduit must also split off to the shop sub panel.

Being as the wires split, somewhere, I wouldn't be able to pull a new wire.


There is a concrete walkway, on the side and back of lanai. I'm thinking the conduit might be under the walkways. 

What would an electrician do? So I can do it.

Conduit can be buried. Junction boxes cannot. It's my understanding that a box is only a junction box if insulation is removed and connections are made. Contiguous wire going through a buried box is effectively branching conduit and allowed. The NEC is not always the most intuitive thing, so don't quite me on this.

This is probably a stupid question, but are you sure that one of the outlets doesn't feed the other? This would be a way to avoid burying a junction box in concrete.

However, it sounds like a buried junction box is a real possibility, in which case you'd be dealing with potential moisture issues. Breaking and patching the concrete would be the only way to really fix that if there are wire nuts underground, which is unfortunate.
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#16
(08-14-2018, 09:39 AM)Cooler Wrote: I have a lamp post in my front yard.  I wanted the electrician to replace it.  He said it was not to code.  That 110 volt wires had to be buried 3 feet deep and mine are only about 10 or 12 inches deep.

So under the side walk only would work in my area if it were 3 feet under.  You will have to check local codes.

The NEC requires as little as 6 inches of cover with 2" concrete cover, or 12 inches with no cover, for residential 120V branch circuits of 20A or less and with GFCI protection.  And there's a specific note after the table that when a different column (cable or conduit type) requires a deeper burial, but the application falls under the last two columns (residential . . . as above, or LV circuits for irrigation/lighting), then the shallower depth of the last two columns is allowed as applicable.

Of course, your local jurisdiction certainly can make the requirements tighter than the NEC, which may be the case in your area.

Edit to add: ref NEC Table 300-5
Tom

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#17
(08-14-2018, 09:26 AM)Pirate Wrote: The conduit/wire apparently has a junction box under the concrete somewhere.  Not accessible = not to code, I assume. 
This conduit must also split off to the shop sub panel.  Not allowed.  Even if it's just a pull box, with no splices, the cover has to be accessible.  And this is why.

Being as the wires split, somewhere, I wouldn't be able to pull a new wire.  Can you run new, in conduit, and/or buried?

There is a concrete walkway, on the side and back of lanai. I'm thinking the conduit might be under the walkways. 

What would an electrician do? So I can do it.  I don't know if a tone generator will work here.  Is the conduit metal?  The tone system will only tell you where the conductors are, but not where the short-circuit (to hot-to-neutral) or ground-fault (hot-to-ground) is, either.  
Tom

“This place smells like that odd combination of flop sweat, hopelessness, aaaand feet"
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#18
All outlets are disconnected.

Breaker is new and doesn't trip with no wire on it.

Good news. I found the conduit, next to the concrete walk. Goes under walk to lanai wall (3')

Taking a break ( lots of roots ) and will resume digging to find the box.

Thanks. I will post results.
I long for the days when Coke was a soft drink, and Black and Decker was a quality tool.
Happiness is a snipe free planer
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#19
(08-14-2018, 11:15 AM)Pirate Wrote: All outlets are disconnected.

Breaker is new and doesn't trip with no wire on it.

Good news. I found the conduit, next to the concrete walk. Goes under walk to lanai wall (3')

Taking a break ( lots of roots ) and will resume digging to find the box.

Thanks. I will post results.

An electrician would do alot further investigating before digging anything. Continuity tester is your friend. Lookl to see if indeed the wire you say goes to those outlets goes to the breaker you say. Start there. Find corresponding neutral and ground wire. Then check for shorts between those wires being you said you have all outlets pulled apart. They should have been on an GFCI weather breaker or outlet. Check wires between outlets to see if they were jumpered. You may be able to eliminate an outlet and cleans up problem. Are you sure the circuit does not go on further to a shed outlet or light fixture?? I would trace the circuit before digging. I seriously doubt that a qualified electrician buried any box in the ground weather a direct pull through or splice.
John T.
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#20
(08-14-2018, 01:29 PM)JTTHECLOCKMAN Wrote: I seriously doubt that a qualified electrician buried any box in the ground weather a direct pull through or splice.

you're assuming a qualified electrician did the work in the first place.  I've seen outdoor lights installed on a porch wall with no electrical box behind the light and caution tape used instead of wire nuts to wrap the bare wires of the light attached to the wire from the switch.
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