Air Cleaners Are they effective
#21
  Re: RE: Air Cleaners Are they effective by Lumber Yard® (All good ideas here....)
(02-14-2019, 12:22 PM)Lumber Yard® Wrote: All good ideas here. I've used a few different set-ups over the years. I started with just a couple cheap box fans with filters strapped on and they do catch a lot of stuff. I purchased a DS 750-ER 14022 3 Speed Air Filtration System years ago and it does a great job of catching stuff and circulating the air in the shop. I also, have a Grizzly 2HP cyclone functioning as my main machinery dust collector. Sometime after purchasing the Grizzly and the JDS I purchase the Dylos air monitor that measures particles in the air. I don't have all the stats and details but I can tell you from memory the best performance was with both running. IIRC I set things up by getting a bunch of dust in the air with a ROS and then ran the tests with both running and then with each of them running independent of each other. The surprising result was the Grizzly Cyclone left running with a couple machine blast gates open outperformed the JDS when they were both running independently. The results were not really close. The Grizzly by itself would scrub the air in a few minutes while the JDS would get it done but it was maybe 5x as long to get it done.

Hopefully that makes sense.

The best air cleaners I've seen use a large duct to send clean air to the other side of a facility, and then set up a sort of circular airflow.

Not too unlike how most people setup a dust collector with piping to their machines.
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#22
  Re: Air Cleaners Are they effective by Jack01 (I am thinking of get...)
I built a sanding room at one end of the shop with a doorway, installed a 2,000 cfm blower in the room to exhaust the dust. The air to exhaust comes from the shop, so no dust gets into the shop area, but the dust will still collect in the sanding room since the dust becomes airborne before it is exhausted. This works well for spraying too.

A filter will pick up of course only the dust it is able to trap in it's air stream before the dust settles. The filter unit moves air that may also be pushing dust away from the filter area and settle before it is trapped. Since dust will still be in the air before it's trapped, you'd still need to wear a mask if the dust bothers you.

Trapping the dust at the source is the best way to stop most of it, then have the filter finish cleaning the air up. I use mine from time to time now that I have allergic reactions to some woods.
"There are no strangers- only friends I haven't met.
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#23
  Re: Air Cleaners Are they effective by Jack01 (I am thinking of get...)
(02-14-2019, 01:13 AM)Jack01 Wrote: I am thinking of getting a Air Cleaner for my Basement Shop 
It is about 290 Sq Ft.
It is sound proof and air tight so the dust does not get to other part of the basement when the door is closed.
I have dust collector and festool vacuum so most of the dust get captured, but I still see some dust on tool surfaces and shelves.

Will the air cleaner be effective to capture the escaped dust and keep the shop relatively clean?

Thanks all for the response.
Great information, I will be getting ceiling mounted air cleaner soon.
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#24
  Re: Air Cleaners Are they effective by Jack01 (I am thinking of get...)
They only work when they; well, work...

I bought a Rikon 3 speed 5 years ago and it stopped working after 6 months.  It was rattling and banging around like a drunk in the middle of hundreds of trash cans. 
I called Rikon and let them know what was happening and they told me to fix it and I told them I was in a wheel chair and could not.  They advised me to get a few friends and I told them it was still under the 5 year warranty and they still insisted on having friends take it down to see what was wrong.

Called them back to tell them the fan came loose from the shaft so they told me to use JB weld to fix it, so the guys did.  It still does not work and it is still does not work and the warranty is done.

I called the same guy 20+ times and he would never answered again even when I left messages each time.  I wrote a letter to them a month ago and they never responded.

I will never have anything else to do with them again.  I can not afford to get shoddy tools and the only reason I went with them was the 5 year warranty but that did not good either.  Upset Upset Upset
It is always the right time, to do the right thing.

Hi, I'm Arlin's proud wife! His brain trma & meds-give memory probs and has pain from injuries, but all is well materially & financially.  
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#25
  Re: RE: Air Cleaners Are they effective by Jack01 ([quote='Jack01' pid=...)
(02-14-2019, 01:55 PM)Jack01 Wrote: Thanks all for the response.
Great information, I will be getting ceiling mounted air cleaner soon.

Unless the filter you buy has a HEPA or equivalent rated filter all you will be doing is filtering the large particles; the small particles, those less than 1 micron, that you can't see but are the ones that put your health most at risk will be recirculated as long as the filter is running.  If you just want to reduce the number of dust nibs in your finish you could use nearly any filter.  If you want to minimize risk to your health only buy those with a HEPA filter.  Same for DC systems.  When I re-engineered my DC system I did away with the filters entirely and now send the exhaust out the window.  Better performance, cleaner air, and no loss in performance as the filters become blinded.
 
John
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#26
  Re: RE: Air Cleaners Are they effective by jteneyck ([quote='Jack01' pid=...)
(02-14-2019, 03:33 PM)jteneyck Wrote: Unless the filter you buy has a HEPA or equivalent rated filter all you will be doing is filtering the large particles; the small particles, those less than 1 micron, that you can't see but are the ones that put your health most at risk will be recirculated as long as the filter is running.

Nope, even the MERV7 filters I use because someone got me a bunch of them will do a fairly decent job of cleaning up the < 1um particles, according to my particle counters.

There is this notion that anything < 1um will never settle, or is super-easily re-animated.  That isn't really true, either.
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#27
  Re: RE: Air Cleaners Are they effective by Phil Thien ([quote='jteneyck' pi...)
(02-14-2019, 03:52 PM)Phil Thien Wrote: Nope, even the MERV7 filters I use because someone got me a bunch of them will do a fairly decent job of cleaning up the < 1um particles, according to my particle counters.

There is this notion that anything < 1um will never settle, or is super-easily re-animated.  That isn't really true, either.

That is not what the Merv chart  shows.  Yes, you will see lower counts of particles, but not those below 1 micron,  nor even very many less than 3 microns.   

As for particles not settling, yes, they all will - eventually, but not while the filter is recirculating many of them.  If you want to filter particles below 1 micron you need a filter rated for it, but it's far easier, cheaper, and foolproof to put a fan in one window and open another.  

John
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#28
  Re: RE: Air Cleaners Are they effective by jteneyck ([quote='Phil Thien' ...)
(02-14-2019, 06:02 PM)jteneyck Wrote: That is not what the Merv chart  shows.  Yes, you will see lower counts of particles, but not those below 1 micron,  nor even very many less than 3 microns.   

As for particles not settling, yes, they all will - eventually, but not while the filter is recirculating many of them.  If you want to filter particles below 1 micron you need a filter rated for it, but it's far easier, cheaper, and foolproof to put a fan in one window and open another.  

John

Remember, the "M" in MERV literally stands for MINIMUM, and "the scale is designed to represent the worst-case performance of a filter when dealing with particles in the range of 0.3 to 10 micrometers."

Source:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimum_ef...ting_value

Seasoned filters as well as filters that are underutilized (meaning the air speed/volume is under the intended application) can contribute to substantially improved performance, as well.

And for the record, I think a fan and open window are wonderful solutions, it just won't work for everyone.  I'm not going to do it in my basement when the outdoor temps are in the negative range, just the sort of day when I often get to hang-out in my shop.

There was a time when a guy touting a cyclone design was telling everyone that the sub-micron dust never settles and it wasn't until we did the group buy of the particle counters that the mass hysteria went away, there is no point in starting that up again.
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#29
  Re: RE: Air Cleaners Are they effective by Arlin Eastman (They only work when ...)
(02-14-2019, 02:17 PM)Arlin Eastman Wrote: They only work when they; well, work...

I bought a Rikon 3 speed 5 years ago and it stopped working after 6 months.  It was rattling and banging around like a drunk in the middle of hundreds of trash cans. 
I called Rikon and let them know what was happening and they told me to fix it and I told them I was in a wheel chair and could not.  They advised me to get a few friends and I told them it was still under the 5 year warranty and they still insisted on having friends take it down to see what was wrong.

Called them back to tell them the fan came loose from the shaft so they told me to use JB weld to fix it, so the guys did.  It still does not work and it is still does not work and the warranty is done.

I called the same guy 20+ times and he would never answered again even when I left messages each time.  I wrote a letter to them a month ago and they never responded.

I will never have anything else to do with them again.  I can not afford to get shoddy tools and the only reason I went with them was the 5 year warranty but that did not good either.  Upset Upset Upset

  You might seek help from The Federal Trade Commission and the state attorney generals office in the form of a letter.

  Send it to me (Blower assembly with motor only)- I'll fix it.
"There are no strangers- only friends I haven't met.
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#30
  Re: RE: Air Cleaners Are they effective by Phil Thien ([quote='jteneyck' pi...)
(02-14-2019, 06:28 PM)Phil Thien Wrote: Remember, the "M" in MERV literally stands for MINIMUM, and "the scale is designed to represent the worst-case performance of a filter when dealing with particles in the range of 0.3 to 10 micrometers."

Source:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimum_ef...ting_value

Seasoned filters as well as filters that are underutilized (meaning the air speed/volume is under the intended application) can contribute to substantially improved performance, as well.

And for the record, I think a fan and open window are wonderful solutions, it just won't work for everyone.  I'm not going to do it in my basement when the outdoor temps are in the negative range, just the sort of day when I often get to hang-out in my shop.

There was a time when a guy touting a cyclone design was telling everyone that the sub-micron dust never settles and it wasn't until we did the group buy of the particle counters that the mass hysteria went away, there is no point in starting that up again.

From your reference, a little further down:

While the smallest MERV value in each row has no minimum requirement for filtering that row's particle size, it does have stricter requirements for all larger particle sizes than any smaller MERV value. For example, MERV 13 has no minimum requirement for removing 0.3–1.0 μm particles (the standard specifies <75%) but has higher minimum requirements for removing 1.0–3.0 μm, 3.0–10.0 μm, and > 10 μm particles than MERV 12 and all smaller MERV values. All other MERV values on each row do have minimum removal percentages for that row's particle size.

You might be expecting too much from Merv 7 filters, or your meter, or both.    

I live in WNY where it regularly (i.e. often) is below freezing in the Winter, sometimes way below freezing.  I often run my outdoor venting DC system for an hour straight.  The temp. in my basement shop hardly changes, maybe 2° at most.  You are right, it's not a solution for everyone, but a lot more people could use it than think so.  Direct venting is not for everyone, but it's for a lot more situations than many realize.  I didn't think it would work until I tried it.  
John
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