Air Cleaners Are they effective
  Re: Air Cleaners Are they effective by Jack01 (I am thinking of get...)
Years ago I read an article in an magazine called (IIRC) "New Shelter".

Those desktop personal air cleaners had just come out and they ran a test on them to see which one worked best.

As a control they used an oscillating fan sitting on the same table as they had used for the filters.

It removed more dust than any of the commercial air cleaners.

Investigation showed that the fan was moving the air fast enough that dust particles would collide with the walls, etc hard enough to stick, thus cleaning the air.

More testing and investigation showed that fine filters didn't work as well as coarse filters -- the critical factor was how fast was the dust particle moving through the filter so it would have enough energy to stick to the filter media.

Therefore several layers of furnace filters moving lots of air will catch more dust than a fine filter that doesn't move a lot of air.

You also need to have lots of air movement throughout the shop to keep dust from settling on shelves, etc where it can be kicked up later or cause other problems. Rolleyes

I did have one of those portable air filters and enjoyed it when working in a small shop, especially when I set it to blow on me when I was doing something dusty.  Really noticed how much cleaner the air was coming out of it.
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  Re: RE: Air Cleaners Are they effective by jteneyck ([quote='Phil Thien' ...)
(02-14-2019, 07:45 PM)jteneyck Wrote: From your reference, a little further down:

While the smallest MERV value in each row has no minimum requirement for filtering that row's particle size, it does have stricter requirements for all larger particle sizes than any smaller MERV value. For example, MERV 13 has no minimum requirement for removing 0.3–1.0 μm particles (the standard specifies <75%) but has higher minimum requirements for removing 1.0–3.0 μm, 3.0–10.0 μm, and > 10 μm particles than MERV 12 and all smaller MERV values. All other MERV values on each row do have minimum removal percentages for that row's particle size.

You might be expecting too much from Merv 7 filters, or your meter, or both.    

I live in WNY where it regularly (i.e. often) is below freezing in the Winter, sometimes way below freezing.  I often run my outdoor venting DC system for an hour straight.  The temp. in my basement shop hardly changes, maybe 2° at most.  You are right, it's not a solution for everyone, but a lot more people could use it than think so.  Direct venting is not for everyone, but it's for a lot more situations than many realize.  I didn't think it would work until I tried it.  

Just to be clear the part you've highlighted in red only refers to relative performance on each row and in no way supports a conclusion of "you might be expecting too much from Merv 7 filters, or your meter, or both."

And I use multiple meters.

In terms of exhaust fans and open windows on cold days, 32F or thereabouts isn't terrible.  0F has me running for cover in short order.  And warm moist air in the summer is even more problematic.

The air quality in my shop is by and large cleaner than the air outside unless and until I do something stupid.
  Re: Air Cleaners Are they effective by Jack01 (I am thinking of get...)
(02-14-2019, 12:13 AM)Jack01 Wrote: Will the air cleaner be effective to capture the escaped dust and keep the shop relatively clean?

If sized and mounted properly, yes.
  Re: RE: Air Cleaners Are they effective by daddo ([quote='Arlin Eastma...)
(02-14-2019, 06:18 PM)daddo Wrote:   You might seek help from The Federal Trade Commission and the state attorney generals office in the form of a letter.

  Send it to me (Blower assembly with motor only)- I'll fix it.

There is more wrong then just that buddy something wrong with the electrical to since it keeps blowing the CB.

It makes me sick to my stomach seeing so much money go to waste over something that should have been a good buy.  It is the People not the product that let me down the most since the product could have and still can be fixed and they could have made it right.  Sad Sad Sad   The number they gave me and I called was 1-800-884-5767 and his name was Ron Burrow and he was the main person who dropped the ball on the whole thing along with others.
It is always the right time, to do the right thing.

Hi, I'm Arlin's proud wife! His brain trma & meds-give memory probs and has pain from injuries, but all is well materially & financially.  
  Re: Air Cleaners Are they effective by Jack01 (I am thinking of get...)
That's funny Ro(D) Burrow was GREAT to work with when I needed support from Rikon. He did "just" send parts but that is how almost all the manufacturers deal with warranty repairs. It's just the nature of the beast, these manufacturers (Grizzly, Rikon, etc.) expect a certain level of competence when it comes to machinery. Personally I would MUCH rather them send me a part than have to box it up and send a complete machine back for repair or try and find and lug it into a local service center.

I actually, had a recent experience with a lawn equipment manufacturer where they wanted me to load the equipment up and take it into a service center for repair. The part that broke was $15 and was held in by one stinking bolt. I asked over and over for them to send me the part so I could just fix it and they refused. I finally just ordered it because at $15 it was less money and hassle than to lug it into a service center.

To each their own but this rant of yours and my follow-up isn't helping the OP with his questions.
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  Re: Air Cleaners Are they effective by Jack01 (I am thinking of get...)
Personally I just use the furnace filters; 3, 16x24x2" side by side. I do get fine dust settling on shelves etc., but the filters trap a lot of dust in a short period of time. I've noticed they capture more fines as they get dirtier. I use a shop vac to clean them , and I usually have the discharge blowing outside to get rid of the really fine dust that the filter can't catch.

Anyway, I was at a industrial auction site today, and part of my friends lot was 5-10 self contained air cleaners. I think they were 24"x24" and about a foot tall. He asked me to take a guess on how much he could get for them. I told him; "exactly as much as someone would pay". So there's the question. How much would you pay? I'll assume we all want a good deal and shipping would be just the actual shipping cost from MA. By the way, if anyone is interested in purchasing one I can PM you his contact info..
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  Re: Air Cleaners Are they effective by Jack01 (I am thinking of get...)
I have made a couple of air filters over the years using squirrel cage fans from heating and air units.

I currently have one above the table saw in my garage, and when I move to my new shop it will get mounted above the saw in a way that the filtered air will blow on me when I am using the say with the idea that the relatively clean air that has just been filtered will be blowing the dust laden air away.

The filters I am using currently are 25x25 x 5” furnace filters that fit the AC units at my old house, as I dont’ have the same size filters at this house, and don’t want to buy new filters for it, I will probably adapt it to use another type of filter.

In the past my first filter used a commercially avialable bag type filter from Granger, and I may go back to something like that although I still really like the idea of recycling the home filters, and may use those in front of the bag type filter.

  Re: RE: Air Cleaners Are they effective by JDuke (I have made a couple...)
To no one  specifically, but everyone in general, if you have not read Bill Pence's info. on dust collection you should.  

  Re: RE: Air Cleaners Are they effective by jteneyck (To no one  specifica...)
(02-17-2019, 10:44 AM)jteneyck Wrote: To no one  specifically, but everyone in general, if you have not read Bill Pence's info. on dust collection you should.  


While it has been some time since I visited, IMHO much of the content there was questionable.

Much of what BP and his apostles preached is what led me to purchasing my first particle counter and subsequently arranging the group buy of particle counters.

That was the notion that air cleaners kept the very finest dust suspended pretty much indefinitely.  That, if we didn't catch the finest dust at the tool, it was in the air forever, basically.

There were people saying crap like "you're breathing the same dusty air the air cleaning is cleaning, it is unsafe."  When I'd object and explain that the air cleaner's "lungs" are infinitely larger than ours and scrubbing all the air in our shops in a matter of minutes , they'd refer me to that site.

There were those saying the people using any sort of bag filter on their DC were simply recirculating the finest dust, that there was no substitute for a cartridge filter.  Of course, that turned out to be inaccurate, as well, people with the finest bags were filtering the finest particles.

Thankfully the particle counters have put much of the hysteria behind us.

The only way to know for sure, is to measure.

You should go read some of Matthias Wandel's stuff:

"In the mean time, I find myself wondering if maybe I'm getting paranoid. If the reading in my workshop goes up to 5000, I think it's too high, but if it hits 9000 outside sometimes, well, that may not be good, but it's just a fact of life. And if I make toast or fry something in a pan, the particle counts in my kitchen easily hit 10,000. One time, after cooking up a storm, I saw a bit of a haze hanging in the air, and the Dylos read 40,000 and 3000. And I assume it goes higher still if the smoke detector goes off.

"All this paranoia is from reading Bill Pentz's pages. One thing that Bill Pentz does not mention directly on his website is that he has wood dust allergies. Having wood dust allergies certainly changes the situation a lot, but most of us don't have wood dust allergies.

"I don't smoke, but I imagine once the air gets thick enough to see the smoke hanging in the air, the particle counts would be much higher. Yet smokers inhale the stuff directly from a cigarette. Sure, it kills some of them eventually, but given how thick the inhaled smoke is, it surely takes a lot to kill a person!

"And, of course, some particles are more harmful than others. On this subject, I exchanged some emails with Dwight A Kaufman, a doctor who emailed me with his comments. Here are some of his emails below. Food for thought!

"Subject: Wood Dust
"Hi, Several years ago I attended an Occupational Medicine Continuing Education Conference at the University of Cincinnati. The main subject was Occupational Lung Disease. I asked one of the lung specialist if wood dust cause lung disease. He answered "No" with no hesitation or reservation. Some people do develop an allergy to wood which may aggravate their asthma or hay fever.
Dwight A. Kauffman MD"
  Re: RE: Air Cleaners Are they effective by Phil Thien ([quote='jteneyck' pi...)
You are mostly preaching to the choir Phil.  I worked for a company that spent lots and lots of time doing air monitoring because our product was deemed an airborne health risk, and even a potential carcinogen in Europe, because a couple of hamsters that were injected with some of the finest fibers from our product developed tumors, not in their lungs BTW.  Not one person has ever been diagnosed with cancer caused by working with our products, but the requirement to continue monitoring and controlling airborne fiber levels goes on, and likely will forever.  FWIW, the Univ. of Cincinnati led the testing and monitoring of our employees; small world.  

What I learned being involved with the our occupational hygienists is that it's really hard to measure airborne particles accurately, even more difficult to parse out the particles you are interested in from all the others.  How and where you test can have a great deal to do with the results obtained.  At least you are measuring dust levels so you have some idea if the filters you are using actually reduce dust levels.  But when you say a MERV7 will remove particles below 1 micron I have to wonder about the accuracy of those meters.  And when I read of folks using even lower efficiency filters I wonder if they understand that they will never filter out the fine particles that present the greatest risk to health.  The air looks cleaner, but the fine particles will not be removed and will continue to get recirculated.   
Does wood dust cause cancer?  I have no clue.  But I do know that fine particles can easily be aspirated deep into our lungs and that's not good.   What's the best approach to protecting our health.  Work with hand tools I suppose, although I've seen data that showed some hand tools generate substantial amounts of fine dust.  Wear a respirator; can't go wrong there if it's rated for fine particles, fits well, and you can tolerate it.  Collect dust at the source with a device capable of capturing fine particles.  Ventilation; my choice with regards to my DC system.  I'll take my risk with particles in the outdoor make up air that replaces the dust laden air my DC exhausts outside as inherently safer than those returned to my shop through a filter. 

I'm not trying to change your opinion here, your mind is made up and that's fine.  I'm only suggesting to others that they educate themselves before installing filters that may not actually improve the air in their shop.      

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