240 wire
#20
  Re: RE: 240 wire by Roly ([quote='TDKPE' pid='...)
(04-07-2019, 07:56 PM)Roly Wrote:  What happened with the fridge ?

   

Frigidaire Gallery series 36" counter-depth dumb refrigerator/freezer with ice/water in the door.  Just delivered a few days ago, in fact.  And the bottom freezer drawer doesn't come out far enough that you can't stand in front of it with the island there, which you can just see a couple of bits of on the right.

She's happy.  So I'm happy.  As are the boys, who don't even live here any more.  If we had a dog, she'd be happy, too.   Laugh
Tom

“This place smells like that odd combo of flop sweat, hopelessness, aaaand feet.”







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#21
  Re: RE: 240 wire by TDKPE ([quote='Roly' pid='7...)
(04-08-2019, 06:55 AM)TDKPE Wrote: Frigidaire Gallery series 36" counter-depth dumb refrigerator/freezer with ice/water in the door.  Just delivered a few days ago, in fact.  And the bottom freezer drawer doesn't come out far enough that you can't stand in front of it with the island there, which you can just see a couple of bits of on the right.

She's happy.  So I'm happy.  As are the boys, who don't even live here any more.  If we had a dog, she'd be happy, too.   Laugh

Looks good.  Main thing she is happy.  Roly
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#22
  Re: RE: 240 wire by TDKPE (Since the 1996 Code ...)
Thanks for clearing that up Tom. For a short time I was wondering if I had wired my shop correctly last year. I don't have inspection/enforcement concerns, but I did try to do everything to code.
I started with absolutely nothing. Now, thanks to years of hard work, careful planning, and perseverance, I find I still have most of it left.
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#23
  Re: 240 wire by Wipedout (So years ago I had a...)
There is a new code requirement for 15/20 amp switched circuits to have a neutral in the Switch box.  You can no longer use the neutral for a switch loop.  This was from a web search of Mike Holt's website. This might have led to the confusion.  For dryer and stove 240v circuits it is also a requirement, because the have 120v components. Dan

Switches, Receptacles, and Panelboards
A review of existing NEC installation rules and a look at significant changes to the 2011 Code
Mike Holt
Feb 01, 2012
Article 404 of the NEC applies to switches of all types, although the Code doesn’t include a specific definition for a switch. However, six types of switches are defined in Art. 100, which gives us a pattern to follow.
A dictionary definition of a switch is a device that opens or closes a circuit, or changes the connections from one circuit to another. In this regard, a circuit breaker is a special kind of switch and is included in the scope of Art. 404.

Neutrals

When wiring lighting circuits supplied by a grounded general-purpose branch circuit, the 2011 NEC now requires you to provide a neutral conductor at nearly every switch point [404.2©]. The purpose for this is to complete a circuit path for electronic lighting control devices, such as occupancy sensors. For many such devices, you must provide standby voltage and current at the switch. When neutral conductors are not installed at switches, the unfortunate result is the equipment grounding conductor (EGC) may be used to fulfill the function of the neutral conductor. While the current from an electronic lighting device on the EGC is typically less than 0.50mA, the installation of many electronic control devices at switch locations in a building can result in an accumulation of excess current on the EGCs. With this Code change, gone are the days of using dead-end 3-way switches and 2-conductor switch loops.
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#24
  Re: RE: 240 wire by rudedan60 (There is a new code ...)
(12-07-2019, 03:22 PM)rudedan60 Wrote: There is a new code requirement for 15/20 amp switched circuits to have a neutral in the Switch box.  You can no longer use the neutral for a switch.....

With this Code change, gone are the days of using dead-end 3-way switches and 2-conductor switch loops.

Pretty much.
I think on three/four way switches you only need the neutral at one location, at least that was my interpretation.
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#25
  Re: RE: 240 wire by rudedan60 (There is a new code ...)
(12-07-2019, 03:22 PM)rudedan60 Wrote: There is a new code requirement for 15/20 amp switched circuits to have a neutral in the Switch box.  You can no longer use the neutral for a switch loop.  This was from a web search of Mike Holt's website. This might have led to the confusion.  For dryer and stove 240v circuits it is also a requirement, because the have 120v components. Dan

Switches, Receptacles, and Panelboards
A review of existing NEC installation rules and a look at significant changes to the 2011 Code
Mike Holt
Feb 01, 2012
Article 404 of the NEC applies to switches of all types, although the Code doesn’t include a specific definition for a switch. However, six types of switches are defined in Art. 100, which gives us a pattern to follow.
A dictionary definition of a switch is a device that opens or closes a circuit, or changes the connections from one circuit to another. In this regard, a circuit breaker is a special kind of switch and is included in the scope of Art. 404.

Neutrals

When wiring lighting circuits supplied by a grounded general-purpose branch circuit, the 2011 NEC now requires you to provide a neutral conductor at nearly every switch point [404.2©]. The purpose for this is to complete a circuit path for electronic lighting control devices, such as occupancy sensors. For many such devices, you must provide standby voltage and current at the switch. When neutral conductors are not installed at switches, the unfortunate result is the equipment grounding conductor (EGC) may be used to fulfill the function of the neutral conductor. While the current from an electronic lighting device on the EGC is typically less than 0.50mA, the installation of many electronic control devices at switch locations in a building can result in an accumulation of excess current on the EGCs. With this Code change, gone are the days of using dead-end 3-way switches and 2-conductor switch loops.



                   You can still use the white for your switch leg. To put it really simply your home run will go to the switch box and then you can run a wire from there to your lights and receptacles. This is really the better way to do it anyway.

                       This is code now because dimmers and other fancy switches require a neutral to work properly. Many people were just using the ground as their neutral for dimmers which is incorrect. Also some unscrupulous dimmer manufacturers knew most didn't have a neutral so they internally used the ground.
             Now think about when a customer has an older house that isn't grounded and has the power run to the fixture instead of the switch... Now you have no way to use a dimmer... Lots of houses built up into the mid to late 60s weren't grounded also remember at that time few were using wirenuts as well so they are all twisted together and taped up.... Always a good thing in older houses to pull fixtures and switches and add wire nuts where needed. They also had a habit of making splices outside of boxes like that as well. I sure am glad houses aren't built like they used to be.
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#26
  Re: 240 wire by Wipedout (So years ago I had a...)
the digital 3 way dimmers I have didn't have a neutral connection.  That's a special order part. The real change would be with 3/4/etc switches.  The remote switches don't typically have a neutral available. I have some interference with one of the dimmers. But I don't think that's due to the lack of neutral. I hope it's not because of current on the ground wire.

I was wondering if 20A 220v outlets were going to need a neutral.  I haven't seen a plug or outlet for that. I guess there are twist lock, but that would render an awfully lot of equipment to be obsolete. Sounds like that's not true yet.
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#27
  Re: RE: 240 wire by EricU (the digital 3 way di...)
(12-08-2019, 04:54 PM)EricU Wrote: the digital 3 way dimmers I have didn't have a neutral connection.  That's a special order part. The real change would be with 3/4/etc switches.  The remote switches don't typically have a neutral available. I have some interference with one of the dimmers.  But I don't think that's due to the lack of neutral.  I hope it's not because of current on the ground wire.

I was wondering if 20A 220v outlets were going to need a neutral.  I haven't seen a plug or outlet for that. I guess there are twist lock, but that would render an awfully lot of equipment to be obsolete. Sounds like that's not true yet.


            Some of the digital dimmers still do what the old ones did and they put a little power through the lights to power the dimmer.  If you have LED lights that have a flicker to them especially if its a consistent pattern kind of like morse code start by unplugging appliances. I have a flicker on some of our LEDs that is caused by a Keurig. I have seen them cause flicker on several other houses as well. Other appliances can do it too. Once you unplug the offending appliance the flicker goes away. 

           The neutral for the 220 outlets is for Dryers and Ovens/Ranges. Doesn't apply to other 220 unless that receptacle uses 4 conductors. If you have an older 3 terminal dryer the case of the dryer is connected to the neutral because there is no ground on your outlet. Old dryers pre front loaders were very prone to heating elements breaking and that element is hot on one side all the time. So when that element falls it hits steel which is connected to the case of the dryer. So the case is energized and the heating element is burning electricity.
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#28
  Re: RE: 240 wire by EricU (the digital 3 way di...)
(12-08-2019, 04:54 PM)EricU Wrote: I was wondering if 20A 220v outlets were going to need a neutral.  I haven't seen a plug or outlet for that. I guess there are twist lock, but that would render an awfully lot of equipment to be obsolete. Sounds like that's not true yet.

NEMA 14-20, 14-30, and 14-50 (non-twistlock) 125/250volt 4 wire receptacles and plugs have existed about forever* https://www.stayonline.com/product-resou...-chart.asp


*Ive been in the trades for 32 years and they predate me.
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