Opinions, Please, on Large Shoulder Plane - Vertias vs. Lie-Nielsen
#11
  
I have a fairly complete kit of joiner's tools, but one tool I've been feeling the lack of is a good shoulder plane.  I'm not interested in getting something second-rate; I'd rather save my pennies and get the first and last shoulder plane I will ever buy.  I think that means either the Veritas or the Lie-Nielsen.  I haven't had a chance to handle either one recently and probably won't any time soon, so I'm reaching out to the hand tool braintrust. 

I know both are very well engineered and very well built.  I know I would get excellent service out of either one.  I know they are about the same price.  I know I can return either one if I don't like it--and I really don't like to abuse the return policy, so no, I'm not going to buy both and return one.  I have more respect for Rob Lee and Tom Lie-Nielsen than that.  

I am curious about how each one handles, especially in touching up rabbets and trimming tenons, both cheeks and shoulders.  

How does each one balance in use?  

How comfortable is each one to hold?  

Do shavings tend to jam in the mouth of either one?  Does one have better escapement than the other?
Steve S.
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#12
  Re: Opinions, Please, on Large Shoulder Plane - Vertias vs. Lie-Nielsen by Bibliophile 13 (I have a fairly comp...)
I've used both and own the LN large.

There is no taper to the escapement so shavings can just crinkle up and clog. However, I don't use this as a rabbet plane so generally it is not an issue to me.

People complain that the LN (Clifton, etc) style is difficult and uncomfortable to hold. That's because the tail of the lever cap IS NOT A HANDLE by itself. Right-handed and working with the blade down (i.e. a tenon shoulder flat on the bench) I typically have my ring finger inserted through the escapement (this could make the problem of clogging worse of course), my thumb on top and my index and middle fingers wrapping top and around to the nose. When I use the shoulder plane on its side, it is cradled in my palm, again centering my grip closer to the escapement as that is the balance point.

I've played with the LV design and while the tilting knobs might be useful to somebody using it two-handed, I just never felt it was necessary.

I used to own a LN medium but sold it in favor of the large. My logic being that I can do small work with a large tool, but not always large work with the smaller tool. Never felt the small LN or LV was necessary.

To address question of balance, I found them both to be well balanced when you locate the center of balance and grip there.
I found both to do the same quality of work when sharpened. I just prefer the LN for personal and aesthetic reasons over the LV design, less is more sort of vibe.

That said, if somebody had bought me the LV large (I bought the LN medium and later large for myself) before I bought the LN tools, I'd probably have the LV model and be satisfied with it.

YMMV
Don't sweat the petty things and don't pet the sweaty things. -- G. Carlin
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#13
  Re: Opinions, Please, on Large Shoulder Plane - Vertias vs. Lie-Nielsen by Bibliophile 13 (I have a fairly comp...)
I have a mid-size Veritas (Lee Valley) shoulder plane and a Record 073 shoulder plane, which style* was the model for Lie-Nielsen's shoulder planes.

If I didn't have the Record and I wanted a large shoulder plane, based on my experience with the Veritas, I'd lean toward that; I just find the ergonomics better.  You do have to be careful not to over-tighten the lever cap on the Veritas; you can actually push the bedding on the iron out of alignment with the rest of the sole if you over-tighten (this is a tradeoff with the type of iron used); but  that's not a bad thing, just a note.

And the LV alignment setscrews make reinstalling the iron after sharpening a breeze; much less fussy.

I purchased the Record before either LN or LV were making shoulder planes. I'm waiting for slightly rusty Record 073 shoulder planes to become a major collector's item, worth enough that I can sell mine and buy a Lee Valley large shoulder plane.

*I believe the style was developed by Preston and adopted by Record.
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#14
  Re: RE: Opinions, Please, on Large Shoulder Plane - Vertias vs. Lie-Nielsen by Bill_Houghton (I have a mid-size Ve...)
(06-18-2019, 02:05 PM)Bill_Houghton Wrote: I have a mid-size Veritas (Lee Valley) shoulder plane and a Record 073 shoulder plane, which style* was the model for Lie-Nielsen's shoulder planes.

If I didn't have the Record and I wanted a large shoulder plane, based on my experience with the Veritas, I'd lean toward that; I just find the ergonomics better.  You do have to be careful not to over-tighten the lever cap on the Veritas; you can actually push the bedding on the iron out of alignment with the rest of the sole if you over-tighten (this is a tradeoff with the type of iron used); but  that's not a bad thing, just a note.

And the LV alignment setscrews make reinstalling the iron after sharpening a breeze; much less fussy.

I purchased the Record before either LN or LV were making shoulder planes.  I'm waiting for slightly rusty Record 073 shoulder planes to become a major collector's item, worth enough that I can sell mine and buy a Lee Valley large shoulder plane.

*I believe the style was developed by Preston and adopted by Record.
I have both lie neilson and veritas, I like the veritas much more.
my .02
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#15
  Re: Opinions, Please, on Large Shoulder Plane - Vertias vs. Lie-Nielsen by Bibliophile 13 (I have a fairly comp...)
I have all three of the LN shoulder planes. My first purchase was the large SP: the conventional wisdom at the time was that the large was the one to have. After a number of years, I have to say that the small shoulder plane is the one I reach for most often. I may be in the minority here, but I use the shoulder plane for, wait for it, tenon shoulders. For the typical furniture I build, the small shoulder plane is perfect for the tenon shoulders I encounter. If shoulder sweetening is the goal, then I suggest the small (or maybe medium) might be just the ticket. If the shoulder plane is going to be used for something other than tenon shoulders; I have nothing.
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#16
  Re: RE: Opinions, Please, on Large Shoulder Plane - Vertias vs. Lie-Nielsen by wing nut ([quote='Bill_Houghto...)
I have used both the medium and large shoulder planes from Veritas for a good amount of time in many projects. In the end. I decided to buy the medium, NOT the large one. I do not see any significant benefits from the large size; the higher price and more weight made it a second choice. I can do anything with the medium that the large can do. As Bill pointed out, the set screws are one of the best features in this plane (enough reason to prefer the Veritas to L-N).

Simon
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#17
  Re: Opinions, Please, on Large Shoulder Plane - Vertias vs. Lie-Nielsen by Bibliophile 13 (I have a fairly comp...)
I have a large LN, medium LV and small Preston (same design as LN & Record). My most used is the large LN and then the Preston. He LV works very well, but my hands always seem to reach for the LN, when it can be used.
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#18
  Re: Opinions, Please, on Large Shoulder Plane - Vertias vs. Lie-Nielsen by Bibliophile 13 (I have a fairly comp...)
Steve, I have all three of the shoulder planes from Veritas. Just to show that you need to try them yourself, I prefer the ergonomics of Veritas. Plus the side set screws make it so much easier to set up again after sharpening.

I would advise against getting a large shoulder plane. Mine is rarely used. I absolutely love the Small shoulder plane from Veritas. This is 1/2” wide and just so useful for trimming rebates. The Medium (3/4”) is probably the better all-rounder. Keep in mind that I do not use a shoulder plane that often for the shoulders of tenons - I much prefer to use a chisel on both shoulders and cheeks. I never use a shoulder plane on cheeks - it is far too easy to tip the plane and screw up the surface. A router plane is a better option her. I do use a shoulder plane on every rebate I make. Sometimes I make rebates with a shoulder plane. Or it gets used for fine, narrow detail work. A large shoulder plane would be like a tank where a pistol is needed.

Regards from Perth

Derek
Articles on furniture building, shop made tools and tool reviews at http://www.inthewoodshop.com
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#19
  Re: RE: Opinions, Please, on Large Shoulder Plane - Vertias vs. Lie-Nielsen by Derek Cohen (Steve, I have all th...)
[quote pid='7758786' dateline='1560902194']
 A large shoulder plane would be like a tank where a pistol is needed.

Regards from Perth

Derek
[/quote]

And we all know which one -- a tank vs a pistol -- is easier to control for precision results.

Simon
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#20
  Re: Opinions, Please, on Large Shoulder Plane - Vertias vs. Lie-Nielsen by Bibliophile 13 (I have a fairly comp...)
But, if your hands are arthritic, like mine, you might find more control in the larger tool.
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