Dovetails and Work Height
#41
  Re: RE: Dovetails and Work Height by Mike Brady (Mine sawing benchnot...)
Nice! So its a Moxon on your regular bench, or is it dedicated to dovetailing? What is height at top of jaw?


(08-31-2019, 05:58 PM)Mike Brady Wrote: Mine sawing benchnot as tall as Becksvoort's but he is a rather tall man

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#42
  Re: RE: Dovetails and Work Height by Philip1231 (Come one, come all: ...)
Bandit and Barron both sit down when sawing. Their benches or the tops they saw on must be lower than the usual benches, unless their stools are raised.

I never sit down to saw my dovetails because the sawing part takes the least amount of time compared to chopping or paring, especially when doing the half blinds. Coping which I sometimes use would reduce the amount of chopping work. Chopping is mostly down in a sit-down position; paring in the stand-up mode. I think any position of sawing or chopping should work as soon as you get used to it.

Simon
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#43
  Re: Dovetails and Work Height by Philip1231 (Recently, on another...)
Yes I think that work height is very important especially as we age.I stated before that I built a bench mock up. The frame was out of 2x4 the size of the bench I wanted it to fit the space. I started a little high and then lowered it with me until I found the optimum height for planning. From about 45 years of experience I have found the the the height of the bench for the rest of the uses works if the planing height is correct.

I used to use a shoulder vise when cutting dovetails but found that for me I was a little to far away. and a clamp on moxon was inconvenient and I hated clamping it to my bench. The clamps got in the way of my drawers. so I build it into my new build bench. 

   

The first picture is of me getting the dovetail cutting height right for my elbow and and I found out the height my body liked when cutting. That height is measurable from the bench top and the beautiful thing is I hadn't built anything so there was no having to live with it.

[attachment=20293]

I like a moxon for doing work. I like it because I can get up close and personal, I can position my body for the natural swing of my arm at the shoulder. Then I built the actual vise.

   

   

   

Height is important so I built my bench so that it was easy to take apart.  bottom boards are held on with magnuts, drawer cabinets just set in place, not fastened in there are 5. Take off the stretchers and the ends can go on my saw and get cut off to make the bench shorter.

These are just some things to think about when building you first or next bench. I hope I have helped someone
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#44
  Re: Dovetails and Work Height by Philip1231 (Recently, on another...)
To Phillip and others:

My Moxon vise is a design by English woodworker Derek Jones.  It is 5-1/2 inches tall, with a working area of 31-1/2 by 17-1/2.  The most critical dimension after working height is the distance between the screws.  Wouldn't it be a shame to build too small of a vise and not have it be be able to hold a wide panel for dovetailing?  As a hand-tool woodworker, I dislike having a bunch of jigs and fixtures to store.  This one is both big and heavy, but I hope it will pay back with utility.  It is nice to have this as a portable vise for those times and places where no good woodworking vise is available.  This one can be set on a couple of sawhorses and has excellent mass and weight, being made from ash.  One thing it does do well is secure the workpieces for dovetailing at an optimal height for sawing.  If you are not going to be utilizing dovetailed joints in your work, you probably could pass on a Moxon vise.
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#45
  Re: Dovetails and Work Height by Philip1231 (Recently, on another...)
You know, for hundreds of years, apprentice and journeymen joiners have been sawing dovetails at the height of their workbench. No Moxon vises or other auxiliary vises. Yes, the Moxon vise did exist, but as far as I can tell, it's only documented in one book. I don't see a lot of historical precedence for raising the height of the work when cutting dovetails or any other kind of joinery. The angle of dovetail handles seems to support my observation. If the use of a Moxon-type vise was commonplace, you'd find a lot more dovetail saws with handles pitched to a different angle.

That's my theory and I'm sticking to it.
Still Learning,

Allan Hill
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#46
  Re: RE: Dovetails and Work Height by Handplanesandmore (Bandit and Barron bo...)
I agree: seems much more natural to stand while sawing. Yes, I chop from my bench stool. And I agree, paring is a stand up function.

(08-31-2019, 06:19 PM)Handplanesandmore Wrote: Bandit and Barron both sit down when sawing. Their benches or the tops they saw on must be lower than the usual benches, unless their stools are raised.

I never sit down to saw my dovetails because the sawing part takes the least amount of time compared to chopping or paring, especially when doing the half blinds. Coping which I sometimes use would reduce the amount of chopping work. Chopping is mostly down in a sit-down position; paring in the stand-up mode. I think any position of sawing or chopping should work as soon as you get used to it.

Simon
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#47
  Re: RE: Dovetails and Work Height by tablesawtom (Yes I think that wor...)
You know, I am not sure I would have built my bench any different, even in light of this dovetail investigation. The bench is perfect for just about everything but dovetails, so it seems that some sort of aux bench (for me at least) would be the way to go. But you clearly engineered your bench: I wonder how many people go to those lengths to get it right? Nice bench by the way Smile


(09-01-2019, 09:53 AM)tablesawtom Wrote: Yes I think that work height is very important especially as we age.I stated before that I built a bench mock up. The frame was out of 2x4 the size of the bench I wanted it to fit the space. I started a little high and then lowered it with me until I found the optimum height for planning. From about 45 years of experience I have found the the the height of the bench for the rest of the uses works if the planing height is correct.

I used to use a shoulder vise when cutting dovetails but found that for me I was a little to far away. and a clamp on moxon was inconvenient and I hated clamping it to my bench. The clamps got in the way of my drawers. so I build it into my new build bench. 



The first picture is of me getting the dovetail cutting height right for my elbow and and I found out the height my body liked when cutting. That height is measurable from the bench top and the beautiful thing is I hadn't built anything so there was no having to live with it.



I like a moxon for doing work. I like it because I can get up close and personal, I can position my body for the natural swing of my arm at the shoulder. Then I built the actual vise.







Height is important so I built my bench so that it was easy to take apart.  bottom boards are held on with magnuts, drawer cabinets just set in place, not fastened in there are 5. Take off the stretchers and the ends can go on my saw and get cut off to make the bench shorter.

These are just some things to think about when building you first or next bench. I hope I have helped someone
Reply
#48
  Re: RE: Dovetails and Work Height by Mike Brady (To Phillip and other...)
I will have to check out this Derek Jones vise: thanks for the suggestion. Too late to pass on the moxon as I have the LN dovetail vise already: could be part of a new aux bench once I design one.

(09-01-2019, 10:32 AM)Mike Brady Wrote: To Phillip and others:

My Moxon vise is a design by English woodworker Derek Jones.  It is 5-1/2 inches tall, with a working area of 31-1/2 by 17-1/2.  The most critical dimension after working height is the distance between the screws.  Wouldn't it be a shame to build too small of a vise and not have it be be able to hold a wide panel for dovetailing?  As a hand-tool woodworker, I dislike having a bunch of jigs and fixtures to store.  This one is both big and heavy, but I hope it will pay back with utility.  It is nice to have this as a portable vise for those times and places where no good woodworking vise is available.  This one can be set on a couple of sawhorses and has excellent mass and weight, being made from ash.  One thing it does do well is secure the workpieces for dovetailing at an optimal height for sawing.  If you are not going to be utilizing dovetailed joints in your work, you probably could pass on a Moxon vise.
Reply
#49
  Re: RE: Dovetails and Work Height by AHill (You know, for hundre...)
You make a very good point, but remember, the average height of the average male has increased by over 5" from the 1870's to the 1970's in Great Britain (googled it). It would not surprise me if today, the average male is 6" taller than his counterpart from the mid 19th century. This is a huge difference, assuming that their bench heights were the same as ours (no data to back that up at all).


(09-01-2019, 12:12 PM)AHill Wrote: You know, for hundreds of years, apprentice and journeymen joiners have been sawing dovetails at the height of their workbench.  No Moxon vises or other auxiliary vises.  Yes, the Moxon vise did exist, but as far as I can tell, it's only documented in one book.  I don't see a lot of historical precedence for raising the height of the work when cutting dovetails or any other kind of joinery.   The angle of dovetail handles seems to support my observation.  If the use of a Moxon-type vise was commonplace, you'd find a lot more dovetail saws with handles pitched to a different angle.

That's my theory and I'm sticking to it.
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#50
  Re: RE: Dovetails and Work Height by AHill (You know, for hundre...)
(09-01-2019, 12:12 PM)AHill Wrote: You know, for hundreds of years, apprentice and journeymen joiners have been sawing dovetails at the height of their workbench.  No Moxon vises or other auxiliary vises.  Yes, the Moxon vise did exist, but as far as I can tell, it's only documented in one book.  I don't see a lot of historical precedence for raising the height of the work when cutting dovetails or any other kind of joinery.   The angle of dovetail handles seems to support my observation.  If the use of a Moxon-type vise was commonplace, you'd find a lot more dovetail saws with handles pitched to a different angle.

That's my theory and I'm sticking to it.

My question is, what difference does it make is if there is any it historical significance in how they were cut in the past?  As far as the angle goes what real difference does it make? And  as far as moxon vises go who cares how wide a piece can be clamped in it. Mine will clamp 27 inches wide so how wide is wide enough.

My point was positioning you body so that the natural movement of the body can be used to prevent the body from yelling during certain operations. Which was what the first person was writing about. Let him who has an ear hear. 

As far as being portable that is entirely a different thing and doesn't pertain to the original post which is what we are supposed to be responding to.
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