Dovetails and Work Height

[Mike Brady]

Interesting observation, Alan.  For me it is not so much a question of sawing height as viewing height.  I can see the cut better now as it meets the baseline.  It also is beneficial for me to have the work at a comfortable height when paring at the baseline.

[AHill]

You make a very good point, but remember, the average height of the average male has increased by over 5" from the 1870's to the 1970's in Great Britain (googled it). It would not surprise me if today, the average male is 6" taller than his counterpart from the mid 19th century.  This is a huge difference, assuming that their bench heights were the same as ours (no data to back that up at all). 

The average height of workbenches has also increased.  Joiners built their own workbenches - and sized them to match their stature.  Same as today (see any book on Workbenches).  Commercially available workbenches are a relatively modern invention.  It's relatively easy to adjust the height of a workbench to taller users.

[AHill]

My question is, what difference does it make is if there is any it historical significance in how they were cut in the past?  As far as the angle goes what real difference does it make? And  as far as moxon vises go who cares how wide a piece can be clamped in it. Mine will clamp 27 inches wide so how wide is wide enough.

My point was positioning you body so that the natural movement of the body can be used to prevent the body from yelling during certain operations. Which was what the first person was writing about. Let him who has an ear hear. 

As far as being portable that is entirely a different thing and doesn't pertain to the original post which is what we are supposed to be responding to.

Tom, I wasn't targeting you in my post.  If your bench works better for you, I have no problem with it.  I never commented on how wide a board a Moxon vise can accommodate.  My comment had to do with the angle of the saw handle, and whether raising the height of your vise (via a Moxon or equivalent) gives you the most efficient cutting angle for your saw.  So, as I said before, if it's working out for you, use it in good health.

[Philip1231]

OK, in summary, so it seems that the woodworkers of days gone by for the most part used a bench sized for the work they did, and I expect that most sized the standard bench for plane work (I assume very common and much more physically demanding then sawing dovetails). The old timers who did this for a living were probably in much better shape than the average “gentleman” woodworker of today. Perhaps bending over presented no or little challenge to these fellows, and they accepted the minor and transitory inconvenience of the task as “business as usual”.
Since, it would seem, that most bench designs are a compromise in that they must accommodate multiple tasks (planing, sawing, chiseling, etc), the modern amateur has accepted this compromise. For those that want to make less of a compromise, it seems that these auxiliary benches could prove useful for specific tasks, i.e. dovetailing. I would imagine that there are some woodworkers out there that have built dedicated dovetailing benches, although my brief search yielded no examples. The auxiliary bench seems like a nice addition to an existing bench, both in its utility to allow the sawyer to stand up straight, thus relieving back pain/issues (for those that are dealing with such maladies). In addition, the raised sawing height brings the work closer to the eyes, improving the sawyers ability to see what he is sawing. The revelation for me, after trying my jury-rigged setup was that the ergonomics of sawing seemed not to suffer: apparently we can adapt to the much higher sawing height and still split the line. I have decided to put this on my list of projects: a very long list indeed. Thanks all that contributed to this discussion: great comments and very useful information. Keep on sawing!

[wmickley]

The problem is posture. It does no good raising the bench height if you still try to saw at eye level. A more comfortable (and sustainable) method is upright posture , sawing at waist level.

Here is a picture of a worker sawing from Roubo. Note upright posture, relaxed arm.

[bandit571]

Yep..raised the board up on a block, too


With my bench, and shop stool....elbow is level with the top of the bench.   When I use the regular handsaw to crosscut, I stand.   Joinery sawing, I sit.  I have a goose-neck lamp I can park to where I can see what I am sawing, or chopping. 

I find that if I clamp a board in the vise, with the baseline a hair above the wood jaws, there is less vibration going on in the board.  The only part I need to work on...where to place my knees...legs of the bench keep getting in the way.  

[tablesawtom]

This is what I am replying to:  Recently, on another forum, someone asked about work height relative to bench height and how it impacted back issues (which many of us deal with at a certain age).  Not too long ago I went from dovetail sawing from my bench face vise to a LN dovetail vise, which raises the work about 4".  After thinking about the issue, I remembered seeing a picture of Christian Becksvoort working at his bench using an auxiliary bench that seemed to raise the height of work significantly (the picture appeared to me to show sawing at a height that looked uncomfortable, and I did not give it much thought). 



So whether the bench height is for a six foot six person or a five foot person it is a moot point. How it impacts back issues (which many of us deal with at a certain age) is not a moot point.  Whether or not you set when sawing or stand as I do, is also a moot point.  How it impacts back issues (which many of us deal with at a certain age) is, because woodworking of any kind is not pleasant in any way shape or form if your back hurts. Woodworking should be fun, and offer release form the daily grind. a place you can go to and forget it all and just enjoy yourself. And yes I know life gets in the way with dead lines and such in the shop also.

What I am saying is"

1. Your bench should fit the space allowed for it. Don't get one and then try to fit it in. 

2. The height should be right for you not what someone else thinks is right. 

    A. to low a bench will give me low back pain when planning in about 2 minutes. ( sold my first real bench because of it.
    B. to high a bench puts all shoulder and stomach mussels  into play. Sold my second bench because of it.

Now to sawing. As stated I used to use a shoulder vise to saw dovetails, I mean Frank Klausz does. But someone on a different forum said he had to stand to far away and I started paying attention. I made a Moxon vise from the planes on Bench Crafted's web page.  After selling two benches I am now paying attention to height and his plan put me to high. And I didn't like the way I had to clamp it. Saw height make line up easy. Helps the saw to the work and not the body. Helps the person to get good results

I have now built my fourth bench and I have tried to make as many improvements to it as I can because of what I have learned in my 45 years of experience woodworking. Having said that it may not be right for anyone else. 

What I am trying to do is pass on time proven information about what works to anyone that will actually read and hear.

Tom   

[tablesawtom]

For the record one of my favorite things to do is build workbenches so I do not want to be a martyr because I sold three.  But everyone was am improvement over the one before it.

The roubo bench was a great bench for the 1600rds in France when they huded lumber from logs with a saw and a broad axe. They also plowed fields with a horses, now they use tractors.
I prefer a shoulder vise to a leg vise and I also prefer a moxon vise to a shoulder vise for dovetails and I love tail vises.


And last but not least, height effects back pain.

Tom

[Handplanesandmore]

The problem is posture. It does no good raising the bench height if you still try to saw at eye level. A more comfortable (and sustainable) method is upright posture , sawing at waist level.

Here is a picture of a worker sawing from Roubo. Note upright posture, relaxed arm.

Was that Schwarz? I think Schwarz is tall and he is often seen bending when sawing in public videos.

I suspect that people who saw at eye level is that they feel more comfortable with seeing what they are sawing as they saw. The same unnecessary habit some people have when they use a tablesaw, insisting that they look at the spinning sawblade as the wood is pushed through it.

I may bend to double check my saw being against the scribed line, but once I start sawing, I never bend down to watch if the cut follows the line. This is what good sawing skills are about.

Simon

[Derek Cohen]

Simon, I wrote about much of this several years ago. At the time I was focussing on hand planing. It was evident to me that the low bench fashion, which followed Chris Schwarz's "pinky test" (bench height level with the pinky) was just not practical (I have raised my bench 2" above this). Not even for him, as video footage (which I collected on a number of celebrity woodworkers on YouTube) demonstrated that his posture was awkward and indicated that his bench was too low. Scroll down this page: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews...anes3.html

It became apparent that most experienced woodworkers would compensate for a low bench when planing by lowering/dropping their body. Generally, it was preferred that they bend their knees, rather bend their backs. Now the bench was at the appropriate height to push a plane forward with forearms on the horizontal.

I wrote early on in this thread that, for sawing dovetails, sawing height is a lesser issue than most want to make of it. Sawing height is important, but not enough to get obsessed about since it is not something that we spend all our time doing. There is also far less force in sawing dovetails compared with planing. Further, sawing dovetails is not completed from the same position. Different saw cuts require different angles. Learn to position your body. Learn to bend your knees. Learn to work from your hip and waist (not your shoulder).

Regards from Perth

Derek