backsaw with hybrid filing
#21
  Re: backsaw with hybrid filing by dave brown (So, I'm looking for ...)
Hmmm, have had zero issues with mine...
   
14" Disston No.4, 9ppi, filed rip.  
   
YMMV. Winkgrin
Show me a picture, I'll build a project from that
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#22
  Re: backsaw with hybrid filing by dave brown (So, I'm looking for ...)
(12-05-2019, 01:43 PM)Admiral Wrote: I'm sort of with Adam on this.  Any "hybrid" is by definition, a compromise in utility; and I also 'get it.'  However, for the price of one new "retail" 14" sash saw filed hybrid, you can get two vintage backsaws, one cc, one tenon rip, and perhaps a decent 26" cc or rip handsaw.  With those saws, you are pretty much set.

That being said, I've filed saws for folks in the hybrid manner, as Bob (who does great work BTW) has offered to do for the OP.  And you lose nothing, as a saw can be refiled easily enough if you don't like it.  I've played around with hybrid filing on my own user saws, and without exception refiled the saws back to a dedicated rip/cc configuration.  But I have a till full of them, after 10 years of rust hunting.....

One can file saws all sorts of ways, but there are always compromises.  Then there is Tage Frid's semi-famous theory of filing everything rip...... which is an interesting point of view.

Me too!

To be honest, if you use a knife to mark out cross-cuts and go deep enough, then using a fine-toothed rip-filed saw to cross-cut gives me fine results.  A lick or two with a shooting board and the cut's are clean!  When he was first making saws for sale I bought a full set of Seaton saws from Mike Wenzloff.  I don't use the big crosscut carcass saw nearly as much as the other rip-filed saws.  

DC
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#23
  Re: RE: backsaw with hybrid filing by DCarr10760 ([quote='Admiral' pid...)
(12-05-2019, 03:13 PM)DCarr10760 Wrote: Me too!

To be honest, if you use a knife to mark out cross-cuts and go deep enough, then using a fine-toothed rip-filed saw to cross-cut gives me fine results.  A lick or two with a shooting board and the cut's are clean!  When he was first making saws for sale I bought a full set of Seaton saws from Mike Wenzloff.  I don't use the big crosscut carcass saw nearly as much as the other rip-filed saws.  

DC

Can I quibble?  

I spent a couple years without x-cut saws because we couldn't find documentary evidence of them from the 18th c and the guys in Williamsburg thought maybe they didn't exist. So they (and I) re-filed all their saws rip, added more rake, and knifed the heck out of their cross cuts. Those saws cut like crap.

It was Jane Rees who quietly set me straight on this issue.  18th c saw makers didn't file x-cut. Saws were sold with a basic rip filing, possibly unset, and were subsequently tuned by the users. So there wouldn't be documentary evidence of cross cut filings.  We know they knew about cross cut tooth geometry because of their big timber saws. Likewise, 18th c plane makers probably sold rough ground plane irons. There was no "out of the box" performance interests among buyers or sellers in the 18th c.  The customers were largely professionals. Many boutique tool makers feel the same way today, btw.  Why pay me to do what you will have to do yourself anyway.

We knife pretty deep when we use a hybrid saw or a rip saw because if we don't, we know we can tear and log roll out the fibers.  We do that so we don't screw up the face of the board with that saw.  But the same crappy cutting action that causes that mess on the face, is still happening inside the cut and with every stroke.  X-cut saws cross cut better than rip saws.  Sawing is hard enough. Why make it harder unnecessarily.

Tage Frid?......hmm. Awesome woodworker who we all owe a debt of gratitude to for inspiring a generation of woodworkers. But maybe this picture can shed some light on why he had some funny ideas about hand saws.
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#24
  Re: RE: backsaw with hybrid filing by adamcherubini ([quote='DCarr10760' ...)
(12-05-2019, 07:07 PM)adamcherubini Wrote: Can I quibble?  

I spent a couple years without x-cut saws because we couldn't find documentary evidence of them from the 18th c and the guys in Williamsburg thought maybe they didn't exist. So they (and I) re-filed all their saws rip, added more rake, and knifed the heck out of their cross cuts. Those saws cut like crap.

It was Jane Rees who quietly set me straight on this issue.  18th c saw makers didn't file x-cut. Saws were sold with a basic rip filing, possibly unset, and were subsequently tuned by the users. So there wouldn't be documentary evidence of cross cut filings.  We know they knew about cross cut tooth geometry because of their big timber saws. Likewise, 18th c plane makers probably sold rough ground plane irons. There was no "out of the box" performance interests among buyers or sellers in the 18th c.  The customers were largely professionals.  Many boutique tool makers feel the same way today, btw.  Why pay me to do what you will have to do yourself anyway.

We knife pretty deep when we use a hybrid saw or a rip saw because if we don't, we know we can tear and log roll out the fibers.  We do that so we don't screw up the face of the board with that saw.  But the same crappy cutting action that causes that mess on the face, is still happening inside the cut and with every stroke.  X-cut saws cross cut better than rip saws.  Sawing is hard enough.  Why make it harder unnecessarily.

Tage Frid?......hmm. Awesome woodworker who we all owe a debt of gratitude to for inspiring a generation of woodworkers.  But maybe this picture can shed some light on why he had some funny ideas about hand saws.

Well, interesting. No offense to anyone. Just a thought. If you are wanting a "hybrid" filing, you are making your self dependent on the person who filed the saw for you as "Hybrid" in the first place. Better, IMHO, to learn to sharpen rip or crosscut keeping it simple. The money you save sharpening your own saws you can spend on another saw. SmileSmile
BontzSawWorks.net
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#25
  Re: backsaw with hybrid filing by dave brown (So, I'm looking for ...)
Ripcut filing is 0° rake and 0° fleam

Very smooth Crosscut filing is 20° fleam and 20° rake. Hybrid can be anything between.

Old German crosscut are 0° Fleam and 15° Rake. I use that when a customer asks me for a 20 tpi crosscut.
Try that. Easy to to file. Not superclean results but how many crosscut faces do you see in well made furniture?
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#26
  Re: backsaw with hybrid filing by dave brown (So, I'm looking for ...)
Didn't Tage Frid champion bow saws? Rip-filed, however. And, was it he or Frank Klausz who had special right-handed blades for the bow saws he used for dovetails that completed the excavations in one or two continuous cuts?
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#27
  Re: RE: backsaw with hybrid filing by Pedder (Ripcut filing is 0° ...)
(12-06-2019, 03:00 AM)Pedder Wrote: Ripcu filing is 0° rake and 0° fleam

very smooth Crosscut filing is 20° fleam and 20° rake. Hybrid can be abything between.

Old Germyn crosscut are 0° Fleam and 15° Rake. I use that when a customer asks me for a 20 tpi crosscut.
Try that. Easy to to file. Not superclean results but how many crosscut faces do you see in well made furniture?


1) I think I get your point about the range of angles and that hybrids fit in between. But just in case anyone tries to take you literally, I would never make any rip saw with all 0 degree teeth (unless maybe it was tiny???) Even 20tpi saws, I relaxed the toe teeth rakes. On my biggest rip saws, only the last 10-12" had 0 degree teeth. Otherwise, they would be virtually un-startable when they were sharp.

2) Clean cuts are not the goal. Using a rip saw for cross cutting doesn't sever the wood fibers properly. Those fibers stay in the kerf and can slow or move the saw, reducing the accuracy of the cut. That's bad. In a hand tool shop, its not easy to fix a wayward cross cut.

3) If you have an exposed x-cut face on a project, doesn't that fundamentally mean you can smooth plane it without consequence? What I worry about are the internal faces of joints. Even just a miter, I'd rather not plane if I don't have to. The rough sawn surface is a better carrier for hide glue. We are using these saws for joinery (or maybe we aren't).

Here's my recommendation:
Everyone needs a 14" backsaw (sash saw) 14ppi, 20 deg rake, 20 deg fleam exactly as Pedder has said. A finer toothed saws will not help unless you are working with very thin stock.*

*typically x-cut saws don't follow the "6 tooth rule" because cross cuts almost always have longer kerfs. If you used the 6 tooth rule, x-cut saws would be too coarse to be helpful. If you make a cross cut too fine, the gullets will clog and slow or stop the cut. So you need some happy medium.
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#28
  Re: backsaw with hybrid filing by dave brown (So, I'm looking for ...)
Thank you one and all for the advice. I have some old Disston's that I'm going to give a try at sharpening. I'm going to buy some back saw blade blanks from Blackburn Tools that have the teeth cut but not sharpened. I have a saw vice and enough information on sharpening to be dangerous. lol
"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy." --Benjamin Franklin
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#29
  Re: RE: backsaw with hybrid filing by dave brown (Thank you one and al...)
(12-06-2019, 02:56 PM)dave brown Wrote: Thank you one and all for the advice. I have some old Disston's that I'm going to give a try at sharpening. I'm going to buy some back saw blade blanks from Blackburn Tools that have the teeth cut but not sharpened. I have a saw vice and enough information on sharpening to be dangerous. lol

Check out Pete Taran's primer if you haven't already:

http://www.vintagesaws.com/library/primer/sharp.html
Credo Elvem ipsum etiam vivere
Non impediti ratione cogitationis
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#30
  Re: RE: backsaw with hybrid filing by adamcherubini ([quote='Pedder' pid=...)
(12-06-2019, 12:27 PM)adamcherubini Wrote: 1) I think I get your point about the range of angles and that hybrids fit in between. But just in case anyone tries to take you literally, I would never make any rip saw with all 0 degree teeth (unless maybe it was tiny???) Even 20tpi saws, I relaxed the toe teeth rakes. On my biggest rip saws, only the last 10-12" had 0 degree teeth. Otherwise, they would be virtually un-startable when they were sharp.

I don't do many big saws, but und the small saws my Rake is close to 0°. But I really don't care for the numbers there. And I don't use file holder with bubble tubes. I just file every saw until it saws perfect.

Startability (?) depends on the weight of the spine (or blade) and the hang angle a lot.

Cheers
Pedder
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