backsaw with hybrid filing
#31
  Re: backsaw with hybrid filing by dave brown (So, I'm looking for ...)
(12-05-2019, 07:07 PM)adamcherubini Wrote: Can I quibble?  

Certainly! I understand your points and it makes perfect sense that saws were sold with basic rip filing in the 18th century.  So no evidence of new saws being filed cross-cut would be extant.  Interesting.  The Seaton saws, some of them, were filed cross-cut, as I recall, but I guess Benny did work with his tools for at least some time (or perhaps somebody else along the way filed the saws).

I guess in my day to day work with joinery saws, I don't really notice the smoothness of the cut.  Most of my cross-cutting to length is done on a Miter Box, which is certainly filed cross cut.  What I'm using my joinery saws for is dovetails, cutting tenons, lap joints and housing cuts for dadoes.  I most often use softwoods or mild-mannered domestic hardwoods.  I cut just to the waste side of a deeply knifed line and then plane to the line with a shooting board.  So I just may not notice the roughness in the cuts?

Interesting about what you said about the rougher surfaces of a fresh cross-cut (compared with a planed edge) being better for glue joints.  I never thought about that, but was under the impression that end-grain gluing (which is where the smoothness of a cross-cut would show up) added little to the strength of a joint.

One of these days I will take a course on saw filing.  They are occasionally offered here in CT at the Woodcraft store in Manchester.  I'm not very good at it (unless I can follow exactly what was done before).

DC
Reply
#32
  Re: backsaw with hybrid filing by dave brown (So, I'm looking for ...)
Quote:Interesting about what you said about the rougher surfaces of a fresh cross-cut (compared with a planed edge) being better for glue joints.  I never thought about that, but was under the impression that end-grain gluing (which is where the smoothness of a cross-cut would show up) added little to the strength of a joint.

I believe that it is a fallacy that rougher surfaces hold glue better than smooth surfaces. If this was the case - that rough is better and smooth is poor - one would have to explain why hand plane jointed edges join so well. The flatter and smoother the surface - without it becoming burnished. - the more likelihood of stiction aiding in adherence. 

End grain gluing does not have to be weak. If one does it the same way as face-or side grain, end grain it going to end up glue-starved since the capillary action of the tubes will suck up the glue. The answer is to first size the joint. This involves sealing the tubes with a thinner solution of the glue, allowing it to get close to drying, and then completing your usual glue up. This is important when gluing mitres.

Regards from Perth

Derek
Articles on furniture building, shop made tools and tool reviews at http://www.inthewoodshop.com
Reply
#33
  Re: RE: backsaw with hybrid filing by DCarr10760 ([quote='adamcherubin...)
Nicholson (1812) lists rip saw, half ripper, hand saw. and panel saw. For back saws he describes tenon saw, sash saw, and dovetail saw. Of these, the two rip saws are used for ripping only and the hand saw and the panel saw, both 26 inches long, he say were used for both rip and crosscut. Of the back saws, he says the tenon saw, 14 to 19 inches, is used exclusively for crosscutting. The other back saws were used for both rip and cross cut.

There are six saws in the Seaton chest: a rip saw, a cross cut, saw and four back saws. The crosscut saw and the tenon saw have very slight fleam, probably less than the "hybrid saws" in discussion here. This jibes with Nicholson's remarks about the tenon saw being used for crosscutting. All the other back saws are filed rip.

For myself, all my back saws have been filed rip for 45 years. They are filed in what Holtzapffel calls ordinary pitch, the face of the tooth being filed perpendicular to the line of teeth. Holtzapffel says that most saws used by cabinetmakers were ordinary pitch. Occasionally they used a very small rake, certainly less than slight pitch, which is 15 degrees. In other words all saws had less than 15 degrees "rake".
Reply
#34
  Re: backsaw with hybrid filing by dave brown (So, I'm looking for ...)
Thanks Warren-it helps to hear from somene who makes his/her living from our craft.
Waiting to grow up beyond being just a member
http://www.metaltech-pm.com
Reply
#35
  Re: backsaw with hybrid filing by dave brown (So, I'm looking for ...)
Quote:For myself, all my back saws have been filed rip for 45 years. They are filed in what Holtzapffel calls ordinary pitch, the face of the tooth being filed perpendicular to the line of teeth. Holtzapffel says that most saws used by cabinetmakers were ordinary pitch. Occasionally they used a very small rake, certainly less than slight pitch, which is 15 degrees. In other words all saws had less than 15 degrees "rake".

Warren, 15 degrees of rake is quite considerable rake to be referred to as "slight". Most modern saw makers offer around 5-7 degrees on their backsaws, with the exception of Veritas, who offer 14 degrees (still under the 15 degree range you mention). I believe that my LN dovetail saw came with 1-2 degrees (this was about 15 years ago). This required a very light touch when starting. 
In other words, modern backsaws appear pretty much unchanged from Holtzapffel's day. 
Regards from Perth
Derek
Articles on furniture building, shop made tools and tool reviews at http://www.inthewoodshop.com
Reply
#36
  Re: RE: backsaw with hybrid filing by Derek Cohen ([quote] For myself,...)
(12-07-2019, 12:35 PM)Derek Cohen Wrote: Warren, 15 degrees of rake is quite considerable rake to be referred to as "slight". Most modern saw makers offer around 5-7 degrees on their backsaws, with the exception of Veritas, who offer 14 degrees (still under the 15 degree range you mention). I believe that my LN dovetail saw came with 1-2 degrees (this was about 15 years ago). This required a very light touch when starting. 
In other words, modern backsaws appear pretty much unchanged from Holtzapffel's day. 
Regards from Perth
Derek

Ordinary pitch is the same as zero degrees rake.
Reply
#37
  Re: backsaw with hybrid filing by dave brown (So, I'm looking for ...)
Dave,

The Gramercy sash saw from Tools for Working Wood is filed hybrid, I believe. At least the one I have will crosscut and rip with ease.

Cliff
You can only be young once
but you can be immature forever.
Reply
#38
  Re: RE: backsaw with hybrid filing by adamcherubini ([quote='DCarr10760' ...)
(12-05-2019, 07:07 PM)adamcherubini Wrote: Tage Frid?......hmm. Awesome woodworker who we all owe a debt of gratitude to for inspiring a generation of woodworkers.  But maybe this picture can shed some light on why he had some funny ideas about hand saws.

What am I supposed to see in the photo?  It does not look like sawing to me.
Reply
#39
  Re: RE: backsaw with hybrid filing by Alan S ([quote='adamcherubin...)
(12-07-2019, 09:27 PM)Alan S Wrote: What am I supposed to see in the photo?  It does not look like sawing to me.

What I saw in the Tage Frid photo: A bandsaw and cabinet saw; no handsaw. 

The rest is pretty confusing as any number of assumptions can be made, from hammering veneer to preparing a board for the planer (out of picture) after being on the jointer.

But, I think you are correct. Adam's humor is too subtle.
Reply
#40
  Re: backsaw with hybrid filing by dave brown (So, I'm looking for ...)
(12-08-2019, 12:40 AM)hbmcc Wrote: What I saw in the Tage Frid photo: A bandsaw and cabinet saw; no handsaw. 

The rest is pretty confusing as any number of assumptions can be made, from hammering veneer to preparing a board for the planer (out of picture) after being on the jointer.

But, I think you are correct. Adam's humor is too subtle.

I just assumed that Adam's point was that Tage Frid didn't appear to use handsaws too much as evidenced by the photo in which there are no handsaws shown at all.  Meaning that his opinions on saw filing should be seen in that context.

All of the stories I heard about Frid (who I admire) show that he was a no nonsense kinda guy that used whatever expedient he could to get the job done.

One story involved a student asking where he got the short butt chisel that he used to demonstrate chopping dovetail waste and he replied, "the hardware store."  Turned out that his method for sharpening was to grind a bevel freehand on a belt grinder and "honing" on a buffing wheel (it works!).  Years of doing this had ground the bench chisel into a butt chisel!

The other story (might've been the same profile in FWW) involved his wife asking him to bring some pork chops in from the freezer, when he did, he brought the whole loin to the shop and cut the loin into chops on his bandsaw!

So it wouldn't surprise me at all if he filed all of his saws rip and then lived with rough crosscuts, cleaning them up later in some other way.  "Whatever works" I guess.

David C.
Reply


Forum Jump:


Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)

Product Recommendations

Here are some supplies and tools we find essential in our everyday work around the shop. We may receive a commission from sales referred by our links; however, we have carefully selected these products for their usefulness and quality.