Face Laminating 2x12 SYP for Nicholson Bench...Bad idea?
#11
  
I am finishing up a handtool only Nicholson bench build and am undecided on the top. I originally planned on doing the entire bench in dimensional SYP, per Mr. Schwarz, but after getting the base together I don't know if I'm going to be happy with a 1x SYP top. I have zero issues with doing a SYP top, I'm mainly concerned with how thick the dimensional lumber will be by the time I take any twist out. (on the other hand the Englishwoodworker implies that you should leave twist and just let the base straighten everything out being that the top is thin) The bench is 7'.

I've been looking at 8/4 hard maple and ash as alternatives. However, I am having trouble finding the widths I need in hard maple. I am perfectly content with going with Ash (expect for the price tag lol), but I want to make sure I explore all options

What are the arguments against face laminating 2x12 SYP? I've never laminated boards that wide and wonder is differences in seasonal movement will be an issue. Any other potential gotchas?


Thanks
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#12
  Re: Face Laminating 2x12 SYP for Nicholson Bench...Bad idea? by agerlach (I am finishing up a ...)
(07-08-2020, 01:15 PM)agerlach Wrote: I am finishing up a handtool only Nicholson bench build and am undecided on the top. I originally planned on doing the entire bench in dimensional SYP, per Mr. Schwarz, but after getting the base together I don't know if I'm going to be happy with a 1x SYP top. I have zero issues with doing a SYP top, I'm mainly concerned with how thick the dimensional lumber will be by the time I take any twist out.

I built the Schwarz Nicholson bench about six years ago - mostly following his plans. The top is made of a single layer of 2 X 12's from the big box store. Not even certain what kind of pine they are. In the store, I picked through the stacks to find 2 X 12's with the least visible twist. I use the bench all the time. The thickness of the top has not been an issue at all. I use Gramercy holdfasts and they stick and hold down as they are meant to.
Regards,
Mike B.

One thing is for certain though. Whichever method you use, you can be absolutely certain that you are most assuredly doing it wrong.
                Axehandle, 2/24/2016

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#13
  Re: RE: Face Laminating 2x12 SYP for Nicholson Bench...Bad idea? by rectangle618 ([quote='agerlach' pi...)
(07-08-2020, 03:12 PM)rectangle618 Wrote: I built the Schwarz Nicholson bench about six years ago - mostly following his plans.  The top is made of a single layer of 2 X 12's from the big box store.  Not even certain what kind of pine they are.  In the store, I picked through the stacks to find 2 X 12's with the least visible twist.  I use the bench all the time.  The thickness of the top has not been an issue at all.  I use Gramercy holdfasts and they stick and hold down as they are meant to.

Interesting. I have the same holdfasts and tested them on a 1x10 SYP and it held pretty poorly. What type of bit did you use for your hole? I used a vintage Irwin auger. My understanding is the Wood owls are a little undersized, which help.
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#14
  Re: RE: Face Laminating 2x12 SYP for Nicholson Bench...Bad idea? by agerlach ([quote='rectangle618...)
(07-08-2020, 04:12 PM)agerlach Wrote: Interesting. I have the same holdfasts and tested them on a 1x10 SYP and it held pretty poorly. What type of bit did you use for your hole? I used a vintage Irwin auger. My understanding is the Wood owls are a little undersized, which help.

Brace and Irwin bit. Not Wood Owl. Sometimes I have to hit the holdfast more than once to make it grip the work piece tightly. That is also true on my other bench which is 3" thick hard maple.
Regards,
Mike B.

One thing is for certain though. Whichever method you use, you can be absolutely certain that you are most assuredly doing it wrong.
                Axehandle, 2/24/2016

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#15
  Re: RE: Face Laminating 2x12 SYP for Nicholson Bench...Bad idea? by agerlach ([quote='rectangle618...)
(07-08-2020, 04:12 PM)agerlach Wrote: Interesting. I have the same holdfasts and tested them on a 1x10 SYP and it held pretty poorly. What type of bit did you use for your hole? I used a vintage Irwin auger. My understanding is the Wood owls are a little undersized, which help.

I think you mean a 2x10 top and you are laminating the edges, exposing the 9.5 inch face. If so, you can save a lot of grief by ripping the face into two 4" wide pieces. That will minimize cupping and help eliminate twist. Most people find better wood in the 10 and 12 inch widths that can be ripped. I don't. It's all garbage at my borgs.

Schwarz usually says at least 3 inches thick. That's why you see 2x4s laminated face to face. If you plan the thing for traditional handtool use, you will want the 3 inches, or more, thickness.

Nobody will specify a one-inch thick top. 

Read the spec's. or email TFWW for recommended thickness and hole diameters for their holdfasts. They do get squirrely in thicknesses over 4 inches.
Heirlooms are self-important fiction so build what you like. Someone may find it useful.
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#16
  Re: RE: Face Laminating 2x12 SYP for Nicholson Bench...Bad idea? by hbmcc ([quote='agerlach' pi...)
(07-08-2020, 08:26 PM)hbmcc Wrote: I think you mean a 2x10 top and you are laminating the edges, exposing the 9.5 inch face. If so, you can save a lot of grief by ripping the face into two 4" wide pieces. That will minimize cupping and help eliminate twist. Most people find better wood in the 10 and 12 inch widths that can be ripped. I don't. It's all garbage at my borgs.

Schwarz usually says at least 3 inches thick. That's why you see 2x4s laminated face to face. If you plan the thing for traditional handtool use, you will want the 3 inches, or more, thickness.

Nobody will specify a one-inch thick top. 

Read the spec's. or email TFWW for recommended thickness and hole diameters for their holdfasts. They do get squirrely in thicknesses over 4 inches.

Yes, that is a typo, I meant I tested the hold fast in a scrap 2x10 SYP. I am following this design https://www.theenglishwoodworker.com/the...tradition/ He uses an 8/4 in top but I know Schwarz has done a similar design with a 2x SYP top https://blog.lostartpress.com/2020/04/09...workbench/
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#17
  Re: Face Laminating 2x12 SYP for Nicholson Bench...Bad idea? by agerlach (I am finishing up a ...)
(07-08-2020, 01:15 PM)agerlach Wrote: ...snip...

What are the arguments against face laminating 2x12 SYP? I've never laminated boards that wide and wonder is differences in seasonal movement will be an issue. Any other potential gotchas?


Thanks

Schwarz himself talks of laminating the top of a Nicholson, doubling up the top with two layers of 2X material. (E.g. https://blog.lostartpress.com/2014/08/24/knockdown-nicholson-video-principles)
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#18
  Re: RE: Face Laminating 2x12 SYP for Nicholson Bench...Bad idea? by agerlach ([quote='hbmcc' pid='...)
(07-08-2020, 10:27 PM)agerlach Wrote:  He uses an 8/4 in top but I know Schwarz has done a similar design with a 2x SYP top https://blog.lostartpress.com/2020/04/09...workbench/

Since it was the bench I made, I was interested to watch the Schwarz video on his English bench - I hadn't seen it before.
The wide aprons are indeed a pain when you need to clamp something to the top. I use the ends of the bench (no aprons there), or use long clamps that reach across the height of the apron. And holdfasts.
I omitted the shelf from my build. It looked awkward and difficult to access. I do store things under the bench - in storage tubs on the floor.
The top of my bench is one layer of 2X12 pine with ribs and bracing below per the Schwarz plans. In my experience with the bench, flexing or bouncing of the single, 1.5" bench top has never been a problem, or even noticed. The ribs under the top and the enormous aprons make the structure very rigid. But, as they say - YMMV...
Good luck with your build. Post your progress here or at least the end result of your efforts.
Regards,
Mike B.

One thing is for certain though. Whichever method you use, you can be absolutely certain that you are most assuredly doing it wrong.
                Axehandle, 2/24/2016

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#19
  Re: Face Laminating 2x12 SYP for Nicholson Bench...Bad idea? by agerlach (I am finishing up a ...)
(07-08-2020, 01:15 PM)agerlach Wrote: What are the arguments against face laminating 2x12 SYP? I've never laminated boards that wide and wonder is differences in seasonal movement will be an issue. Any other potential gotchas?


Thanks

I think they'll likely to twist some and separate.
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#20
  Re: Face Laminating 2x12 SYP for Nicholson Bench...Bad idea? by agerlach (I am finishing up a ...)
Been using a 2 x 10 for the top of my bench.....it will be 7 yrs old this coming September. Used just a single layer.    I use dog holes and dogs.   No issues.    2x 10 was from an old waterbed frame.
Show me a picture, I'll build a project from that
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