Saw Handle Finish
#31
Like Adam, I prefer a saw handle that's got some grip to it. I actually prefer an unfinished saw handle. I have some wood handled screwdrivers, and the very first thing I do with them is remove any finish they have. There's probably a good reason you'll find unfinished handles on Lie-Nielsen chisels and Grace Brothers screwdrivers. I think one reason a lot of members prefer Tru-Oil is it penetrates the wood vs. sits on the top of it. To me, aside from the angle to the tooth line, the two most important things about a saw handle are shape (comfort) and grip. When I'm using a saw, I'm not looking at the pretty grain on the handle. I'm looking at the cut line.
Still Learning,

Allan Hill
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#32
(09-16-2020, 12:01 PM)adamcherubini Wrote: Just my opinion

I think there's a difference between a finish that is good for selling saws and a finish that is good for using saws. I think a lot of hand saw buyers have very little experience using hand saws and therefore aren't sure what to look for.  Likewise, the hand saw makers are typically not hand saw users. So I'd be hesitant to copy other makers' saws.

The logic appeals, Adam, but in my experience I have not found much variation among saw finishes.

When I was building case furniture, I could have a DT saw in my hand for many hours a day.  Maybe 4-6. Depending on your shop conditions etc, I found some finishes to be better than others.  My favorite was linseed oil. I soaked my handles in linseed oil over night. This also changed the weight and balance of the smaller saws.

Few, if any, here use a dovetail saw for 4-6 hours per week, never mind each day. Maybe each year ..
Smile


I particularly did not like very very smooth saw handles, like those everyone produces now. I rasped and wood filed out the curved parts, sometimes scraped a little and not much else.  My friends thought these were too rough to sell and maybe rougher than saw handles would have been 200 years ago. They may have been right. I guess I felt that sand paper, while available 200 years ago, would not have easily handled curved surfaces, I don't think it was cheap and I suspect many 18th c tools were what we would call partially completed tool kits!  

Anyway, I think you want a little roughness for friction on the handle.  I think if you ask shooters, they would say while older pistols had very smooth grips, almost all modern pistols often have textured grips.  So I suspect many would prefer that sort of grip. If I were redesigning saws right now, I would look to the gun manufacturers' grip designs, the over molds and replaceable backstraps. These grips are important because I think its very difficult to grip something tightly without changing the point of aim.

When you are sawing, you really want a light grip on the saw but you don't really want it to move around much. Thus the textured and contoured handle. A polished dowel would be the worst thing for a saw handle. If you feel you need to hold it tightly to keep it from moving around in your hand, its going to be harder to use well.

This is a reason I dislike gent saws. They make little ergonomic sense to me. On the other hand, I like a Japanese saw. Both have straight handles, but the latter are used in tension and the handles are bound in cane.

Try the Gramercy DT saw. The Western handle is thinner than any, and the saw is lighter overall. It begs to be held lightly, and to caress the end grain with its teeth. 

It is finished - flat rather than shiny. I doubt that a rough finish would add much to control. Saw users simply need to learn to relax their grip. 

PS- I've been teaching my boys to saw.  Telling them to relax their hands is a near constant critique. Oh, and I bought some of those Stanley hard point saws based on a couple reviews I read online about how surprisingly nice they were.  I guess its a comparison thing, having spent the last 20 years using custom made saws. Those Stanley saws are absolutely atrocious tools in comparison. I bought them to cut plywood, which I think quickly dulls normal saws. I struggle to get a decent cut with them. A nice saw with a good handle is really easy to use well. I wish everyone could use my saws. I think in 30 minutes, guys would be better at sawing and have very different ideas about what they want, what features make a saw good etc.

If at all possible, I would try a couple different finishes and really spend some time (hours if not days) then make your decision. Maybe every saw maker has done this and arrived at different conclusions.
Articles on furniture building, shop made tools and tool reviews at www.inthewoodshop.com
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#33
Hi Derek- thanks for responding. I think gent's saws were saws for gentlemen (hobby) woodworkers. Their turned handles, while beautiful, are significantly more tiring to use in my opinion. For a single small box, I guess they are fine.

I wanted to say something about Joel's saw. That handle is very delicate looking. I believe Joel copied the design from an original saw, possibly from the toolchest of Duncan Phyfe. Its possible Joel got that wrong. Its possible Duncan or his saw maker had small hands. I have heard many complaints about those saw handles being too small. I think the concern is that they are harder to keep hold of because they are so thin, which goes to my point. That said, I have long hands (because I'm freakishly tall like Schwarz). I found Joel's saws perfectly comfortable to use (at least for the 5 minutes I used them at conferences). I particularly liked the shallow depth of the blade and the very fine teeth. I like his saws very much.

I'm not sure I think you need grip to control the saw. If I wrote that, that wasn't right. Rather, I think you want the saw glued to your hand such that you don't need hand strength to keep it in its position (if that makes sense). I could see a market for a shrink fit rubber grip or a stretch on thing like they have for weapons.

I think I've written too much about this and wasted everyone's time. I think the polished saw handles are beautiful works of art. I think a well made handle that fits your hand and has no finish or just an oil finish is maybe more functional. I think a straight off the file, surface finish is probably good enough for a good usable saw or plane.

One caveat - for reasons I wont go into, I typically am pushing myself when I work. Speed is a big part of what I seek in a project, so being pretty sweaty might be part of the reasons behind my opinions. So if that isn't your deal, maybe that would explain very different points of view on this subject.
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#34
Adam, I think that this is a great topic, so no need to apologise. I recall when you were making saws ... oh, about 12 or so years ago. I would love to see a dovetail saw handle of yours. There are many very stylish handles around, but I wonder how much thought has gone into the actual ergonomics of the design, as opposed to simply copying an “established” design?

Regards from Perth

Derek
Articles on furniture building, shop made tools and tool reviews at www.inthewoodshop.com
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#35
(09-14-2020, 03:37 PM)Pedder Wrote: Thanks for the kudos! What you want to know? We are doing it simple and long way: sand from rasp trough100, 120 150 180 240 320 400 600 up to 800 on all the woods and TruOil after that than some carbnaubawax and parrafin mix to pop up.[Image: IMG_0552.JPG] Ebony the same up tp 800 than puppy oil. than 1000 1200 up to 1500, than blacked carnauba wax. [Image: IMG_0541.JPG]

Ask Tom and Mike for their procedure.

Cheers
Pedder

I will attest to Pedder and Klaus's saw handles/finish: they are works of art!
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#36
(09-17-2020, 12:02 PM)Derek Cohen Wrote: Adam, I think that this is a great topic, so no need to apologise. I recall when you were making saws ... oh, about 12 or so years ago. I would love to see a dovetail saw handle of yours. There are many very stylish handles around, but I wonder how much thought has gone into the actual ergonomics of the design, as opposed to simply copying an “established” design?

Regards from Perth

Derek
Derek, from my perspective, I put a lot of work into handle designs. I started making saws in 1999 or 2000. First saws were straight up copies of Seaton chest saws. But I built and tested and tested and built for years, tweaking the design as I went. By the time I was offering saws for sale, I had prototypes with 1000s of dovetails on them. The features of the handles were complicated by my own user requirements. For example, in the pictures of the 2 Lawyers saws in this thread, it appears the handles hang below the toothed edge. That doesn't work for me personally. When cutting half blind dts, I dig out the tails with the last few teeth at the heel. I also turn the saw around, man up and grab the blade, and pull it into that hard to chop tail area. I found this to be faster than having to chop more carefully and I never liked the beat-the-scraper-in technique. I don't have a 2 lawyers saw. Maybe it can be done that way. Not criticizing their design. I think those guys are great. Just using it as an example of a single feature that I felt, for me, was really not an esthetic choice. For long open saws, I use a variety of 2 hand grips and vertical sawing techniques that my handles had to accommodate. I think you will find old saws with similarly designed features, but modern saw makers, some unaware of these techniques, have maybe misrepresented them, losing that functionality.
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#37
(09-17-2020, 02:23 PM)adamcherubini Wrote: .  For example, in the pictures of the 2 Lawyers saws in this thread, it appears the handles hang below the toothed edge.  That doesn't work for me personally.

I checked my Two Lawyers DT Saws: the one with the black handle has it tail about a 1/16" below the tooth line. The other, has its tail about 1/16" above the tooth line.
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#38
I will propose that it's really, really difficult for a single saw handle design to be found universally preferable to all saw users. (I'm not claiming anyone has said this.) Everybody's hands are different sizes, and we all stand at different heights, so the hang of the handle and the size of the grip may be comfortable for some users, but uncomfortable for others. I've attended one or two of Adam's classes at WIA years ago. I'd classify Adam on the tall side with larger hands than most. Joel is much shorter than the average guy with smaller hands. What Adam likes, Joel may not like, and vice versa. I have hands on the smaller side, but I'm average height. For me, even Joel's dovetail saw handle is on the small side. I think his choice of a small handle has more to do with making the saw light weight than anything else. The best fit for a saw handle for me was one I made myself. Of my vintage saws, I have an 1900's-ish Disston No. 7 which fits my hand perfectly. I'm inclined to modify the LN dovetail saw handle I have because I think it's too clunky (for lack of a better description). There's no law that prohibits anyone for modifying or replacing any saw handle you currently have to make your saw more ergonomic or more effective.
Still Learning,

Allan Hill
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#39
I have a Adria DT saw. I have cut hundreds if not a thousand DTs with it. It cuts great, but the handle is fat. I have big hands, but the big handle on that Adria fatigues my hand. I have since got a LN DT saw with a thinner handle, and it is about perfect for me. I have tried TFWW thin saw handle and found it quite comfortable, but the LN does the job for me.

This thread got me to pull out the back saw parts I have tucked away. 2 brass backs for 14" saws, and a Disston 12" steel back with some spring steel and saw nuts. I just need to cut out and shape some handles and file teeth to finish them up. Should be my next project.
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#40
(09-17-2020, 02:23 PM)adamcherubini Wrote: Derek, from my perspective, I put a lot of work into handle designs.  I started making saws in 1999 or 2000. First saws were straight up copies of Seaton chest saws. But I built and tested and tested and built for years, tweaking the design as I went.  By the time I was offering saws for sale, I had prototypes with 1000s of dovetails on them.  The features of the handles were complicated by my own user requirements.  For example, in the pictures of the 2 Lawyers saws in this thread, it appears the handles hang below the toothed edge.  That doesn't work for me personally. When cutting half blind dts, I dig out the tails with the last few teeth at the heel. I also turn the saw around, man up and grab the blade, and pull it into that hard to chop tail area.

We never was asked for a saw with that technique. Our design relates to our heavy spines. When the hang is too high it got hard to start the saw otherwise.

For halfblinds I would take a gents saw. Maybe even with some pull teet at the fron of the saw.
[Image: image1.JPG]

Cheers
Pedder
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